A Protocol for Dying • Hacker News Board

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#131

Post by athenot » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:20 PM UTC

nikolay wrote: post #30

As an Eastern Orthodox Christian, euthanasia would not be an option to me, but I really hope I'd never have to think about it as a choice. I had an early stage melanoma in 2004 and I know I "beat it", but I also know it's all a matter of time and I made some important lifestyle changes and most importantly - switching to a ketogenic diet and intermittent fasting. (Well, also as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I'm curr…

Catholic here so I have the same position on euthanasia. The thing is, there is an alternative: good palliative care, which revolves around good pain management and promoting the best quality of life in the end days. The US hasn't been very good at that type of care but there are some improvements, and more and more are getting into it.

The irony, is that sometimes, someone in palliative care might live longer than someone being actively treated. Here[1] is an extreme example. Less extreme examples ocurr every day as people undergo tests and treatments which end up precipitating the general condition of the person. 70 years old and heart arteries fully blocked and only auxiliary perfusion? DON'T go get a stress test, you already know the outcome and no significant difference will be occur in treatment.

Ask any health professional how they want to die, and almost none of them will want to "do everything possible to treat". They've seen it and it sucks: doing chest compressions, thus breaking ribs of frail elders, all because their children refuse to see them let go; seeing people with tubes up every orifice and yet still in pain, away from loved ones and surrounded by strangers… no thanks!

Public Service Announcement: if you don't have any yet, make some Adcanced Directives to document what should be done to you should you become incapacitated. You can always revise them on a yearly basis.

St Robert Bellarmine wrote "The Art of Dying Well"; for non-Catholics there are other similar writings about how to live a full life without pretending that death will never happen.

[1] A terminal phase Greek cancer patient leaves NY to die in peace in his Greek island and outlives all his doctors. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-...

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#132

Post by scandox » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:21 PM UTC

Code Connected got me interested in programming again.

http://hintjens.com/blog:30

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#133

Post by jawilson2 » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:23 PM UTC

bsandert wrote: post #16

From personal experience, I can very much relate to and agree with this piece. My father went through a similar process: cancer (melanoma) – two years of treatment and coming to terms with the facts – euthanasia. As a family, we have been very matter-of-fact about it, which was definitely something he encouraged and participated in. We frequently talked about all aspects of his disease, the future, how it affected hi…

Out of curiosity do you live in the US?

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#134

Post by asimuvPR » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:23 PM UTC

anexprogrammer wrote: post #130

aninhumer wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Accuracy will get you an endless cycle of "but why dad?" So keep answering until you can't, and then say "I don't know". Curiosity is something to be fostered, not shutdown with lies.

Have you had an inconsolable five year old who lost a close relative or even pet? I prefer to use analogies and explanations they can understand and accept to help them understand the reality. It's not the same as presuming they have no concept of death. That's a very long way from shutting them down with lies, avoiding the topic, or "protecting" them from it. It's trying to be age-appropriate. I make no claims to be…

I lost a brother who has two girls. They were very young when it happened. It was a sudden death. Gone in less than a day. You never get an answer to the why. The Lego analogy works because it tells the child that life ends. It doesn't explain why. Just the fact. And that's ok. Why did my brother die? Everyday I ask myself that very same question and have yet come to an answer. His daughters have asked me why too. I never answer and hug them. Life is but a gift. It's not logical. But makes sense in a way. Worth living and worth dying for.

Only thing I can come up with is to wish everybody health and a long life.

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#135

Post by anexprogrammer » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:24 PM UTC

anonymous777 wrote: post #84

This whole thread reeks of death acceptance culture. HN readers show off how cool they are for accepting death instead of discussing how we as a tech community could help cure these diseases or at least give more people an option of being cryopreserved. The really unpleasant truth is that if we as a society began doing serious focused R&D on these life-threatening diseases earlier, the OP and many others wouldn't hav…

Can't we do both?

Our track record on cures rather than palliative treatments is abysmal. So yes, let's research disease and cures. Let's consider quality of life and the wishes of those involved above all. A greater element of the system not squarely focussed on profit would be helpful.

For many forms of cancer we actually have one of the few exceptions. Survival rates from cancers are far higher than twenty or thirty years ago. Often healthy survival at that with full remission.

For those unlucky enough to have a terminal condition (and regardless of progress there will always be some), or riddled with chronic conditions and infirmity, let's allow them to pass with dignity, when and how they choose.

My dog had a better experience than my father. My father knew his time had come and didn't want his last six months of bedridden suffering. He didn't want it for his family, especially wife, either. Neither my father nor I believed in a life after, and accepted this was it, so there was no bullshit of "going to a better place".

I also want more acceptance of death and better treatment and consideration of those dying. We can't yet abolish it.

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#136

Post by anonymous778 » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #91

adaml_623 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'm sure you'll be down-voted but in case you come back to check the replies I'll just say I'm sorry that you can't accept the world at the moment. Unless the singularity happens really soon and someone bootstraps a benign godlike AI to take us under it's wing I think we're stuck with a very high (five 9s ?) probability of dying. It's fine to rail against it but sometimes you have to accept that you were born in…

It's not either/or. We could accept that and fight it, so that our children, or our children's children won't have to die anymore.

I agree, the question is not "Should we work on it or death is OK?" but "What are we doing to solve this problem?". For example there are people doing amateurish experiments on rodents, other people tinkering with ML and so on.

Of course I "accept" death as a fact of life that happens to almost everyone by default. But note that saying that death is a fact of life is a bit wrong because there is a handful of exceptions, 100s of rich people that opted for cryopreservation. They have a small chance of coming back later in some form. Most people in the world don't (because 80k$ is a too big sum for them).

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#137

Post by emodendroket » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #96

anexprogrammer wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

downvotes? I'm not sure how this rates those. Accuracy isn't really helpful to a five year old who doesn't yet have all the concepts needed. The tooth fairy isn't accurate either. Accuracy will get you an endless cycle of "but why dad?"

That's called being a responsible parent. It's either that, or your child's future partner will have to deal with them losing faith in their parents, after so many things they were told turned out to be bullshit said to shut them up.

If you'd resent your parents for explaining death to you when you were five by an analogy without technical accuracy you probably have other issues.

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#138

Post by emodendroket » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:29 PM UTC

Neslit wrote: post #105

azazqadir wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, it doesn't have to be accurate. It just have to make sense to a child.

To put it bluntly, I can think of a number of other cases where (1) people say things to children because it is more pleasant or convenient, not because it is true, and (2) these misleading statements have negative effects later. In this case, it seems potentially worthwhile to keep in view that death is actually not a good thing, and that it would better if there weren't death, and that we want to keep an eye out fo…

It seems like if every person who has ever lived were still alive today we'd had some issues.

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#139

Post by anonymous778 » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:34 PM UTC

anexprogrammer wrote: post #135

anonymous777 wrote: post #84

This whole thread reeks of death acceptance culture. HN readers show off how cool they are for accepting death instead of discussing how we as a tech community could help cure these diseases or at least give more people an option of being cryopreserved. The really unpleasant truth is that if we as a society began doing serious focused R&D on these life-threatening diseases earlier, the OP and many others wouldn't hav…

Can't we do both? Our track record on cures rather than palliative treatments is abysmal. So yes, let's research disease and cures. Let's consider quality of life and the wishes of those involved above all. A greater element of the system not squarely focussed on profit would be helpful. For many forms of cancer we actually have one of the few exceptions. Survival rates from cancers are far higher than twenty or thir…

>For those unlucky enough to have a terminal condition (and regardless of progress there will always be some), or riddled with chronic conditions and infirmity, let's allow them to pass with dignity, when and how they choose.

I'm all for that, after all one can decide what to do with his/her life and how to end it. But I think it would be much more fair to give people another choice: being cryopreserved. Sounds futuristic, but I don't see anything futuristic in storing humans in a tank of liquid N2. The technology to do this on scale is half a century old.

Of course euthanasia is cheaper than cryo, and that makes us ask ourselves another unpleasant question: What is the real market value of human life? Is it really lower than the price of infrastructure for preserving humans in liquid nitrogen?

Re: A Protocol for Dying

#140

Post by Neslit » Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 1:34 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #138

Neslit wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it bluntly, I can think of a number of other cases where (1) people say things to children because it is more pleasant or convenient, not because it is true, and (2) these misleading statements have negative effects later. In this case, it seems potentially worthwhile to keep in view that death is actually not a good thing, and that it would better if there weren't death, and that we want to keep an eye out fo…

It seems like if every person who has ever lived were still alive today we'd had some issues.

Do you mean because of limited resources like food and space? Sure, but (1) these look like difficult but quite solvable problems (we are engineers, after all) and (2) the alternative is having every person who has ever lived also be dead, which sounds bad to me.

There might be more clever options, like cryopreserve everyone who dies; this does not consume many resources (the only recurring cost is liquid nitrogen, which is pretty cheap). Then we can wait to revive everyone until we have the medicine and the resources to support everyone, avoiding overpopulation.