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Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

theguardian.com

191–200 of 218 posts

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ehhh, most of the UN wants to really talk about a different approach than prohibition, historically it's been Russia, China, a few smaller countries and the US that has taken a hardline on it. Now the US is starting to back away. Will be interesting to see if anything new comes out of hte next UN drugs summit.

UK is probably going to keep a hardline on it. Government shuts down any potential discussions on it here.

Complete nonsense. The British government does not shut down discussion whether potential or actual.

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#192
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to Vancouver, too, and I've seen the street you're talking about. Drove down it with my family and it was shocking. Massive piles of trash everywhere, grocery carts, garbage bag "luggage", mobs of people. It was sad and quite shocking if you've never seen it before. Nothing I've seen in SF or LA compares to this. But...I don't think marijuana caused that. I think it has a lot more to do with a permissive ci…

I had to walk through it with my family. It's difficult to describe the shock we experienced. The reason I think it's linked to Marijuana is how easy it was to obtain. If these homeless people can get access to it, they probably wouldn't bother working to improve their lives. They can have an "awesome life" in their minds if they get to smoke pot. At least that's my impression of what Marijuana does to people. It mak…

You're really misinformed on this topic.

> The reason I think it's linked to Marijuana is how easy it was to obtain

Marijuana is easy to obtain just about everywhere on the planet. I knew around 20 drug dealers at one point in the US. I buy weed here in Cambodia from an old grandma. It's easy if you're looking.

> If these homeless people can get access to it, they probably wouldn't bother working to improve their lives. They can have an "awesome life" in their minds if they get to smoke pot.

Do you have some strong evidence that a homeless person's sole desire in life is to easy access to marijuana? Because if not it comes across as a sweeping, irrational judgement against a diverse group of people.

> That's why all countries ban drugs even though they don't ban Alcohol.

Many countries ban marijuana because the US used its leverage to compel those countries to do so.

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For one thing, decriminalization is easy to do. Decriminalization is a bad idea. It increases demand, which gives gangs and mafia types more money. If you're going to do it, legalize it.

I can't see that being an option in the case of heroin or meth. It makes sense to decriminalize users/addicts because they are the victims whom drug legislation is supposed to protect in the first place. But to me it makes no sense to allow anyone to profit from a substance that causes this much harm.

Switzerland had success with the heroin problem. They've made it legal and free, but to get it free, you need to visit a hospital for your daily injection, where they also can give you psychological help.

The program seems to have been a success, destroying the market for illegal heroin, and also reducing demand because it gives the drug a perception of being for losers.

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#194
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see that being an option in the case of heroin or meth. It makes sense to decriminalize users/addicts because they are the victims whom drug legislation is supposed to protect in the first place. But to me it makes no sense to allow anyone to profit from a substance that causes this much harm.

How did they manage it in the 30s (or whenever depending on your nationality)? Are you absolutely certain that criminalization wasn't an overreaction to a problem that after all wasn't all that big?

If you've got a free hour-or-so sometime this BBC documentary is pretty engaging and describes the opiate timeline regarding use and legal status: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3M1QPoeNMU

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#195
post #148

I'm a little bit worried about this, actually. I've been to Vancouver and it wasn't a very pretty sight. The amount of homelessness and crime is 10 times more what I've seen anywhere else in North America. There's an entire section (several blocks) in the Downtown area that's full of homeless people and the streets smell like urine. Shops even in areas far away from downtown put posters on their windows saying they d…

Gotta reply to this, since I live/work downtown.

The Downtown Eastside (DTES) is the oldest part of Vancouver. It's located next to the port, so it's where the rooming houses have historically been located. It's much the same as Pioneer Square in Seattle, the Tenderloin in SF, or Skid Row in L.A. It's also where Chinatown is located, a historically persecuted community.

It's actually a great neighbourhood. You'd be surprised at how many of the movies and TV series you watch are filmed there.

In Vancouver, due to NIMBYism, almost all of the social housing projects have been pushed into this one neighbourhood. Deinstitutionalization led to the rehousing of the mentally ill population into social housing. You also find marginalized populations such as indigenous people. Naturally, with that concentration, that's where you find the IV drug use, drug dealers, prostitution, etc.

For political reasons, welfare rates haven't budged in a couple of decades, so beyond housing and health care, the people in the social housing projects aren't well cared for. A lot of the residents collect bottles from trash, or beg for extra income. It's not uncommon for an IV drug user to have a $300/day habit. So naturally there's a lot of property crime and there's always been prostitution.

The court system is overwhelmed, and it's not economical to re-house the population in prison, so there's a revolving-door aspect to the police/court system here. Generally speaking, don't expect your bike to not get stolen, and don't leave valuables in your car or your windows will be smashed.

On the flip side, it's a really safe neighbourhood to walk around in, even at night. There's very little violent crime. Most of the shootings you hear about on the news happen in the suburbs.

There are genuine homeless people out there, but most of the "homeless" you see are just local residents who would rather hang out outdoors than spend their day in the dingy "single-room occupancy" bedbug-infested hotels they are forced to live in.

Gentrification is a big deal. In the past 10 years, the DTES has been rapidly been redeveloped with new condo developments, hipster coffee shops and high-tech startup offices. The social housing isn't going to move, so there's an interesting mix and substantial tension. A lot of the "blighted" buildings owned by slumlords that are sitting there in an unmaintained state are just being held until they can redeveloped into major condo projects. The non-subsidized low quality housing is disappearing rapidly, which is causing pressure on homelessness.

There's a lot of innovative work being done to change the situation. Places like the Crosstown Clinic are doing real internationally-recognized research and making real progress in figuring out how to treat the underlying causes of drug addiction. There are "harm reduction" programs in Vancouver that don't exist anywhere else. The government has stepped in and purchased a lot of vulnerable SRO housing stock and converted it to public housing to prevent a major crisis.

Vancouver is a hippie culture. If you scratch the surface, you'll soon learn about how draft dodgers from the '60s and '70s worked their way into the fabric and today's civic leadership.

As far as Marijuana goes, it's effectively legal via "prescription", and recently there has been a massive proliferation of "dispensaries". That said, it's still technically illegal here. Just over the border, in Washington State, it's now fully legal, and you see billboard ads for it everywhere. The Canadian federal government has just announced that they are going to legalize it for all of Canada.

There's a one block stretch on Hastings Street where some of the earliest marijuana shops are located. But generally speaking, the social ills of the DTES are associated with addictive IV drug use (heroin) and crack cocaine and not with social drugs like marijuana.

Most people are blind to the fact that there are downtrodden people everywhere in North America - they just aren't in the most visible of places. In the DTES, that population is concentrated in a small area where they just happen to be more visible than the same population in your home town.

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#196
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is often missed in these statistics is that 90% of the homicides committed by black citizens are committed against black citizens, so it's not surprising that blacks are overrepresented in homicide statistics since they are overrepresented in poor income neighborhoods where all the problems inherent to poverty exacerbate the cycle of violence.

So poor blacks kill each other in huge numbers, and poor whites don't. What's your point exactly? Also, maybe you missed the black on white numbers which are off the charts compared to the inverse.

> So poor blacks kill each other in huge numbers, and poor whites don't. What's your point exactly?

90% of black murder victims are killed by black perpetrators, 84% of white murder victims are killed by white perpetrators, so I'm not sure why you suggested that poor white people don't kill each other. My point is that the higher black on black homicide rate is what we'd expect to see for a population that is disproportionately concentrated into densely populated low income regions, which will push up their representation in overall homicide stats.

> Also, maybe you missed the black on white numbers which are off the charts compared to the inverse

What exactly does off the charts mean?

13.6% of white murders are committed by black people, 7.6% of black murders are committed by white people, so yes, blacks murder whites at a higher rate, that is clear, but what is your point?

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is often missed in these statistics is that 90% of the homicides committed by black citizens are committed against black citizens, so it's not surprising that blacks are overrepresented in homicide statistics since they are overrepresented in poor income neighborhoods where all the problems inherent to poverty exacerbate the cycle of violence.

Controlling for poverty does not remove the effect where blacks commit more crime than whites. > As a means to assess these possibilities, I estimate separate regression equations for the black and white block groups in Atlanta. [...] Consistent with previous research, percent black retains a strong, significant effect on violent crime net of the effects of other controls. [...] Although this finding appears to provi…

> More white people than black live in poverty, yet blacks commit crime at far higher rates. For statistics see FBI and DOJ crime data:

1 in 10 whites live in poverty compared to 1 in 4 blacks so it's not true that more whites live in poverty (unless you're talking about absolute numbers, which doesn't tell us anything meaningful in a comparison to the black crime rate).

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3226952/Sampson_...

> Discrimination appears to be indirect, stemming from the amplification of initial disadvantages over time, along with the social construction of "moral panics" and associated political responses. The "drug war" of the 1980s and 1990s exacerbated the disproportionate representation of blacks in state and federal prisons

> Blacks, and to a lesser extent Hispanics, suffer much higher rates of robbery and homicide victimization than do whites. Homicide is the leading cause of death among young black males and females. These differences result in part from social forces that ecologically concentrate race with poverty and other social dislocations.

I agree that the topic could use more good science and research.

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#198
post #148

I'm a little bit worried about this, actually. I've been to Vancouver and it wasn't a very pretty sight. The amount of homelessness and crime is 10 times more what I've seen anywhere else in North America. There's an entire section (several blocks) in the Downtown area that's full of homeless people and the streets smell like urine. Shops even in areas far away from downtown put posters on their windows saying they d…

Gotta reply to this, since I live/work downtown. The Downtown Eastside (DTES) is the oldest part of Vancouver. It's located next to the port, so it's where the rooming houses have historically been located. It's much the same as Pioneer Square in Seattle, the Tenderloin in SF, or Skid Row in L.A. It's also where Chinatown is located, a historically persecuted community. It's actually a great neighbourhood. You'd be s…

As someone who walks through or along-size the DTES nearly every day, this is a fantastic response and summary of the situation, Jim, capturing the complexity of the situation nicely. The DTES is not as simple a problem as many people would like to think, nor can it be ignored, as more and more external pressures are put upon it. It is, however, a fundamental part of living in Vancouver, for better or worse.

As for the parent comment: on a minor note, no one who lives in Vancouver thinks the issue is weed by any stretch. Jim's assessment, above, is entirely accurate. My personal hunch is that legalized weed would have absolutely no impact on that part of Vancouver at all.

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#199
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of commercial grade filters available for just about any space. Perhaps your HOA/apartment complex could form regulations around ventilation, filtration, waste disposal, etc..

I live in a triplex from 1910. My 'ventilation' is opening the front and back balcony door. The outside air often stinks like skunk. It's actually pretty nauseating.

My apologies, I wasn't clear on that.

I meant that regulations could be enacted for those cultivating marijuana in their home, requiring proper ventilation and filtration.

Nobody wants to smell skunk all the time.

Re: Canada to introduce legislation to legalize recreational cannabis

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Bill Hicks said: "Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally on our planet, serves a thousand different functions, all of them positive. To make marijuana against the law is like saying that God made a mistake."[1] I'm not huge in to this 'God' person, so replace 'God' with whatever is in fashion this week, the point stands. It's wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. Harm reduction, we do it with alcohol. That's t…

As much as I am in favour of legalising and controlling drugs (as opposed to the current system) that is a horrible argument that Bill Hicks uses - opiates are legal however I firmly remain of the opinion that allowing recreational opiate use would be a terrible thing

We can control and regulate the use of these things. In Australia a licence is required to operate a still, and excise is payable on distilled beverages[1]. We could have similar legislation in place for marijuana and opium and ephedra and mushrooms where you are allowed to possess not more than some specific quantity or not allowed to posses certain extracts / concentrations.

Speaking from personal experience it is conceivable that some people could responsibly use opium (and its derivatives) recreationally.

I mean, a person can go to a liquor store and buy more than enough alcohol to kill themselves and their football team, but we allow that because we recognise most people consume in moderation / act responsibly.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_laws_of_Australia

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