Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German] • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#171

Post by fab13n » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

CaptSpify wrote: post #136

fab13n wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. The phone being instrumental in a first crime, it'll be easy to get a wire warrant and listen for the subsequent crimes you'll commit by using it. Most criminals aren't masterminds (and the few who are, are genrelly designed with other names, such as "politicians"); if you make it difficul…

> But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. Do you think someone who bought a sim-card from someone else is going to "register" that card with authorities? "Hey, I just bought this card, so you can't follow me. Where do I update my info?"

No, but I think most of those who make an habit of registering SIM cards on behalf of others will be known pretty fast.

Once you know a SIM card is suspect, because it's been registered by a known addict and trafficker, you can put a wire on it even if you don't know who holds the phone. With this plus BTS-based geolocation, your chances of catching typical, opsec-illiterate criminals are vastly improved.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#172

Post by fab13n » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:20 PM UTC

phn wrote: post #102

fab13n wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. The phone being instrumental in a first crime, it'll be easy to get a wire warrant and listen for the subsequent crimes you'll commit by using it. Most criminals aren't masterminds (and the few who are, are genrelly designed with other names, such as "politicians"); if you make it difficul…

The comparison with guns doesn't really hold up. Guns are not a fundamental piece or even really necessary, when living in a modern society. A SIM card on the other hand, is pretty darn convenient for the general population.

The comparison was only between illegal guns and illegal SIM cards. Very few people have untraceable SIM cards, nor consider that they need one.

Whether they're right to belive they don't need one, that's an interesting but different question!

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#173

Post by orbitingpluto » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:24 PM UTC

Did I read that right? Complete address required?

First you get rid of the public payphones, then you require a valid address for a mobile. Poof! The homeless truly can disappear.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#174

Post by elbear » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:25 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #148

wolfgke wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does: One is a criminal if the prosecution in a lawsuit can convince the judge that the accused is a criminal. Some evidence can only be collected in a panopticon which can make a difference in the trial. It would only make no difference if the result of the trial would be independent of the additional evidence that a surveillance state could in principle collect. But this would mean that the surveillance state is…

Then the source of our disagreement is simply this: Is the definition of "criminal" (a) Someone who has committed a crime (b) Someone who was convicted of a crime he may or may not have committed I was using (a). If you are using (b) then I understand where you're coming from. But I think it's not a good idea to use (b) because that would make everyone who is the victim of a miscarriage of justice a criminal when in…

Almost every person on this planet has committed a crime at some point. Sometimes we do it, because we believe it to be insignificant. Sometimes we are not aware that we are committing that crime.

I watched an excellent speech of a law professor giving examples of people who broke the law without realising. Unfortunately, I don't remember how to find that video.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#175

Post by nikolay » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:49 PM UTC

Those SIM cards are also banned in Bulgaria, but people find all kinds of way to buy hundreds of cards that belong to retired or mentally ill people, and others or import cards from abroad.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#176

Post by cloudjacker » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:51 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #117

I live in Germany. In general Germans are very privacy conscious, due to, as others have mentioned in this thread, experiences with the Stasi. Up until recently with the refugee situation, border control hasn't been too strict, and agents generally don't berate you with questions if you possess validate documents. This pisses me off, and I wager a large portion of the German populace. Let's hope this goes down in fla…

A lot of germans I know are concerned about the new representation of extremist parties in the last elections.

My perspective is continually that the existing government fails to represent the people, and any polar opposite party will force the existing government to compromise in their plans, and create policies that do more accurately reflect the will of the people.

Exhibit a

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#177

Post by throwanem » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

jarman wrote: post #156

creshal wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Resistance to ID is just an americanism. I literally just explained how it's not. > There are no practical negative consecuences Assuming an ideal, benevolent government. (Presumably residing on an infinite frictionless plane, feasting on spherical cows.)

Government will identify citizens anyway. It's not choice between ID and no ID, but between simple ID and ad-hoc scheme (Name/Surname/Birthdate/Residence composite, or issuing separate id for each institution). While IDs do have negative consequences, I see zero downside in replacing VATIN, passport number (linked list of "previous document" in worst case, down to birth certificate), army id number, employment record…

Centralization and slack are inversely proportional. If everybody is reliably and unambiguously identified from birth by a single government-issued and -maintained key, and that government turns against its citizens (or is overthrown, compromised, et cetera), you're basically hosed.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#178

Post by tdkl » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #117

I live in Germany. In general Germans are very privacy conscious, due to, as others have mentioned in this thread, experiences with the Stasi. Up until recently with the refugee situation, border control hasn't been too strict, and agents generally don't berate you with questions if you possess validate documents. This pisses me off, and I wager a large portion of the German populace. Let's hope this goes down in fla…

> Up until recently with the refugee situation

That's why they were invited - they could never introduce such measures, but now they're making you "safe".

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#179

Post by fauigerzigerk » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:11 PM UTC

elbear wrote: post #174

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the source of our disagreement is simply this: Is the definition of "criminal" (a) Someone who has committed a crime (b) Someone who was convicted of a crime he may or may not have committed I was using (a). If you are using (b) then I understand where you're coming from. But I think it's not a good idea to use (b) because that would make everyone who is the victim of a miscarriage of justice a criminal when in…

Almost every person on this planet has committed a crime at some point. Sometimes we do it, because we believe it to be insignificant. Sometimes we are not aware that we are committing that crime. I watched an excellent speech of a law professor giving examples of people who broke the law without realising. Unfortunately, I don't remember how to find that video.

Absolutely, and I'm not a proponent of the surveillance state as some here seem to think.

My point is that law makers define what a crime is. The effectiveness of law enforcement doesn't change that fact. It's not good to have laws on the statute book that wouldn't be there if only they could be enforced.

So if the surveillance state highlights the fact that we're all criminals, what that should tell us is that criminal law is in urgent need of a root and branch review.

The surveillance state is a very bad idea for many reasons. But saying that we reject the surveillance state because then laws could actually be enforced is a questionable argument. There are many better ones.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#180

Post by CiPHPerCoder » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #179

elbear wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every person on this planet has committed a crime at some point. Sometimes we do it, because we believe it to be insignificant. Sometimes we are not aware that we are committing that crime. I watched an excellent speech of a law professor giving examples of people who broke the law without realising. Unfortunately, I don't remember how to find that video.

Absolutely, and I'm not a proponent of the surveillance state as some here seem to think. My point is that law makers define what a crime is. The effectiveness of law enforcement doesn't change that fact. It's not good to have laws on the statute book that wouldn't be there if only they could be enforced. So if the surveillance state highlights the fact that we're all criminals, what that should tell us is that crimi…

Start over from zero: We have these civil rights and no one, not even the government, may not impede on them. And then criminalize things that make sense to criminalize.

Odds are, in a few hundred years, we'll end up right back where we started.