Born for it – How the image of software developers came about • Hacker News Board

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#111

Post by sgift » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:21 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #108

sgift wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That were my thoughts too .. if they had ignored her "You see, nerds ignore women and make them feel unwelcome", now "see, they are creeps, that makes woman feel unwelcome" - and if you ask "what is your solution?" "They should behave normal." which is the most useless answer ever. If I ask ten people about normal behaviour in a given situation I get ten answers and if I drill a bit further more like 40 answers, almo…

Human behaviour is complex, but that doesn't mean there aren't some basic universal truths that will always help. Things like "Don't treat every attractive person you meet as a potential sexual partner. Use behaviour appropriate to the context you're meeting them in. An engineering class is not a social gathering."

> Human behaviour is complex, but that doesn't mean there aren't some basic universal truths that will always help

I thought that too once, then I learned that not everyone thinks people should have access to adequate food, shelter and medical care. I've since stopped from assuming anything when dealing with humans. People never cease to amaze me in their sheer capacity to be abyssimal to each other.

(Warning, potential topic derailment lies ahead ..)

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#112

Post by cableshaft » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:36 PM UTC

kami8845 wrote: post #80

tajen wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is still blaming nerds for something they really can't do anything about. There's really a gap between "scientific surveys" and the terrain I've seen. In my last project as contractor there were 9 male/developers and 4 females with a management title. The meantime-to-management I've seen is 2 years after graduation for women, 7 years for males. All 15% females of my 150-student class are now in management positi…

Maybe it made more sense for the business to have you as a developer writing code and her as a manager rather than you as a manager and her writing code?

Well he ended up leaving, so they didn't get him as a developer either. That's a significant catch 22 in a lot of these companies.

There's no path for promotion beyond "developer" without becoming a manager, but then you're not doing the work you're great at, so there's a disincentive to promote you, but the developers want to have career growth, so they get restless and eventually leave the company for a different one, usually getting a salary boost but possibly still being stuck as a 'developer' because they saw no advancement at their previous company.

I'm struggling through a similar situation now, although I have project management and team lead experience, I was never officially promoted because they were small companies and didn't want to bump my salary (or believed they had a flat heirarchy and "titles were meaningless").

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#113

Post by vox_mollis » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:50 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #30

cb18 wrote: post #19

So many mysteries of the modern world become quite understandable when you allow yourself the luxury of understanding the relevance of intelligence. It varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. The modern tendency is to feverishly avert one's eyes from this fact, but it must be reckoned with eventually. I believe we'll all be better off wh…

> [Intelligence] varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. Holy fuck. Yeah. I'm calling you out for being a racist fuck. Your "human biodiversity" aka "scientific racism" is a pseudoscience that has no basis at all. All your ideas better explained by economics. So in conclusion, fuck you.

I love this response.

[META] Not due to the content of the response, but the fact that dang, who is rightfully vigilant about enforcing standards of civility all over HN (with detachment, warnings, and bans), willfully ignores blatant violations of said standards where ideology aligns.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#114

Post by cableshaft » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #11

brandmeyer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything Google needs more different minorities if anything, for instance Latinos and Blacks. This is a much bigger problem than just the software industry in the US. I'm a Navy veteran, as a nuclear reactor plant mechanic. I remember being shocked in MEPS (the enlistment and entry processing center for all branches of the armed forces) by the number of black men enlisting in the Army and Marine infantry - it's…

Engineering, from my recollections, had probably the highest wash-out rates of any major when I was in college. It sure looks like a huge part of that is because of the math requirements - a lot of engineering programs throw you in the deep end right at the beginning, with calculus and differential equations, and then you're pretty much hosed in the subsequent coursework if that doesn't click, or you come in woefully…

Eh, those math and science Computer Science required classes I haven't found to be too useful after getting my degree (exception: discrete math and linear algebra). It was definitely a struggle to get through them, though, and I found math and science to be easy in high school, so I probably wasn't as well prepared.

But even though I breezed through it in high school, my classmates didn't, even the AP courses. So I'm not sure how much that could be ramped up. I do think at least discrete math could be taught earlier, though.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#115

Post by DanBC » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 2:55 PM UTC

vox_mollis wrote: post #113

jonathankoren wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Intelligence] varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. Holy fuck. Yeah. I'm calling you out for being a racist fuck. Your "human biodiversity" aka "scientific racism" is a pseudoscience that has no basis at all. All your ideas better explained by economics. So in conclusion, fuck you.

I love this response. [META] Not due to the content of the response, but the fact that dang, who is rightfully vigilant about enforcing standards of civility all over HN (with detachment, warnings, and bans), willfully ignores blatant violations of said standards where ideology aligns.

What did dang say when you emailed him a link to the comment?

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#116

Post by exclusiv » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 3:38 PM UTC

eaq wrote: post #54

exclusiv wrote: post #29

I don't deny that there is some history in the current representation of programmers but I don't buy that socially awkward white males are somehow oppressing diversity in general as some would suggest. When they supposedly aren't, it's a brogrammer problem and blatant sexism. Everyone wants to find someone to blame. Granted this was 9 years ago, but when I was in computer engineering we had a few classes with only 1…

> All the nerdy types flocked to her Is it unimaginable that this might be uncomfortable?

Not in this case. I was friends with her. I never witnessed anything disrespectful and she spoke regularly with most of the classmates. Perhaps flocked was a bad word - but let's just say it was obvious that she was getting a lot of attention initially for the fact that she was the only female.

Assuming they were being creepy or coming on hard to her because they took interest is just wrong. I think it could be intimidating for some women in a similar situation but that's normal if you're extremely outnumbered. I was offered a job at a women's fashion company once. It was a little intimidating with the sheer number of beautiful women, the different culture and the tiny tech team. I didn't take the job because they didn't have a proper budget, not because I felt women were making me uncomfortable. They weren't.

When you're around a lot of similar people, it's refreshing to work with someone with a different background. People are naturally curious. Did some talk to her because they thought she was cute? Perhaps, but that's not a crime. My point was that I don't believe male programmers are exclusive of women and programmers are merit-based people at heart. They want to work with women. There's just not many of them.

This is just my experience, but I've been in several industries and the only thing I've ever witnessed in tech was one guy who was mildly creepy with another female employee and she was friends with him. In other industries like hospitality and real estate - they are tightly controlled by men and there's a lot of obvious sexism and I've seen several sexual harassment claims. Yet, there are a lot more women in them than tech.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#117

Post by exclusiv » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

kabouseng wrote: post #74

onion2k wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the nerdy types flocked to her and were very inclusive with team projects. That woman would have had to question why the nerdy types were so keen to include her. There's a huge difference between a motive of "Let's invite someone to our team because they're a great engineer" and "Let's invite someone to our team because they're hot and they might agree to date me once they really know me". Being keen to include s…

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

Exactly.

I'd love to see an experiment where they put one female in a class of men of various backgrounds and aspirations. Perhaps: liberal arts class, Ag class, business class, etc. and see what happens.

I'd be willing to bet that the engineering class would be the most respectful.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#118

Post by exclusiv » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

Terr_ wrote: post #60

cronjobber wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we clearly need to tell nerds they can't interact with females, because... ...help me out here. Because nerds are icky?

Perhaps the label "creepy", which some argue is disproportionately reliant on the attractiveness of the subject rather than what they say or do.

So true. There was a funny skit on SNL where Tom Brady and another guy said the exact same things and Tom was welcomed while the other guy was creepy and hit with a lawsuit.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassme...

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#119

Post by blah5432 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

coffeandcode wrote: post #110

blah5432 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

diversity (or lack of it) of the field is a result of the shift in targeting a certain type of person for the programmer's job Based on... which facts exactly? Edit: As far as I can see, the picture is that there's a bunch of socially inept males that some shadowy powers carefully select to make a mysoginistic getto to keep women at bay. This is utterly ridiculous, no matter which amount of social science "evidence"…

"some shadowy powers carefully select to make a mysoginistic getto to keep women at bay." While some may claim this, it is not stated in the article at all and I don't think this is a mainstream opinion. Also the article actually gave detail about this shift in targeting with the SDC recruiting procedure - and it is clear it was about optimising the work environment - and not to exclude women. This also coincided wit…

The "detail" is so vague as to not deserve that name. Give me a ten minutes description of the described environment and I will give you a dozen alternative explanation to the especulation presented in the article.

This is no more than coach psicology.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#120

Post by mpweiher » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #99

eva1984 wrote: post #70

First of all..The stereotype is mainly nerdy, socially-awkward male...but is it overall white? No. Actually the percentage of white people in software is lower than the overall demographics. I can understand why white is singled out here, because it helps to drive the rhetoric of the discussion to racism and sexism, but fundamentally the problem is much more complex. My 2 cents about why women are underrepresented in…

"My 2 cents about why women are underrepresented in software industry is that not too many of them are interested in the beginning. One big drive of male programmers, according to my observation (hundreds of samples), are video games, myself included." I think you are drawing a false statistical conclusion here. The basic hypothesis you are making is: "In the population of women, there is a lower average aptitude for…

>>is that not too many of them are interested in the beginning.

>lower average aptitude for programming than in the population of males

How did interest turn into aptitude?