Born for it – How the image of software developers came about • Hacker News Board

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#71

Post by executesorder66 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:19 AM UTC

oneweekwonder wrote: post #48

jonathankoren wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The facts don't back this up the assertion that this was an inherently transitory effect. Women fell out of computer science starting 1985, and hasn't gained any year since.[0] Turing was prosecuted as soon as his usefulness in the war effort ended, so I don't think they made that many bounds. And if we're going to have a good ol' oppression-off how about blacks? They weren't anywhere in programming, and sadly still…

> and sadly still aren't. I have to disagree with you. I'm from Africa, and I can point you to many African programmers. Maybe in your country where blacks is a minority(?) you don't see black programmers. But in the last 10 years of my programming career. I worked next to black competent peers.

Can confirm.

I am one of 2 white people in my dev team. We have one Indian and one Asian. The other 15 devs are all black.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#72

Post by jonathankoren » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:22 AM UTC

DKnoll wrote: post #46

jonathankoren wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The facts don't back this up the assertion that this was an inherently transitory effect. Women fell out of computer science starting 1985, and hasn't gained any year since.[0] Turing was prosecuted as soon as his usefulness in the war effort ended, so I don't think they made that many bounds. And if we're going to have a good ol' oppression-off how about blacks? They weren't anywhere in programming, and sadly still…

I don't know if I should be disturbed or amused that you were willing to say "And if we're going to have a good ol' oppression-off how about blacks?" under your real name. It says a great deal about your motives when you speak facetiously about the struggle of others as if it's just a trump card to be used in debate. I could digress into a rant about academics here but I'll hold my tongue and let you use your imagina…

My point was that it sucks for all oppressed groups, but trying to say, "yeah but this other group has it worse," or even, "but why isn't this other group mentioned" isn't helpful to any group.

It's like showing up at an event to fight cancer, and complaining that and heart disease isn't getting its due. Yes, heart disease is important too, but that's not why we're here.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#73

Post by blah5432 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:28 AM UTC

coffeandcode wrote: post #50

exclusiv wrote: post #29

I don't deny that there is some history in the current representation of programmers but I don't buy that socially awkward white males are somehow oppressing diversity in general as some would suggest. When they supposedly aren't, it's a brogrammer problem and blatant sexism. Everyone wants to find someone to blame. Granted this was 9 years ago, but when I was in computer engineering we had a few classes with only 1…

I don't think the article was really putting socially awkward white males to blame. I believe it tried to say that the diversity (or lack of it) of the field is a result of the shift in targeting a certain type of person for the programmer's job. And this accumulated over time reinforcing the notion until recently that it's sort of a no girls land. I can't help but feel that you're kinda shifting the blame when you s…

diversity (or lack of it) of the field is a result of the shift in targeting a certain type of person for the programmer's job

Based on... which facts exactly?

Edit: As far as I can see, the picture is that there's a bunch of socially inept males that some shadowy powers carefully select to make a mysoginistic getto to keep women at bay.

This is utterly ridiculous, no matter which amount of social science "evidence" you put into it. I'll be retired by then, but I'm pretty sure enough time will put this crazy notion to rest.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#74

Post by kabouseng » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:31 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #56

exclusiv wrote: post #29

I don't deny that there is some history in the current representation of programmers but I don't buy that socially awkward white males are somehow oppressing diversity in general as some would suggest. When they supposedly aren't, it's a brogrammer problem and blatant sexism. Everyone wants to find someone to blame. Granted this was 9 years ago, but when I was in computer engineering we had a few classes with only 1…

All the nerdy types flocked to her and were very inclusive with team projects. That woman would have had to question why the nerdy types were so keen to include her. There's a huge difference between a motive of "Let's invite someone to our team because they're a great engineer" and "Let's invite someone to our team because they're hot and they might agree to date me once they really know me". Being keen to include s…

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#75

Post by tomp » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:45 AM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #30

cb18 wrote: post #19

So many mysteries of the modern world become quite understandable when you allow yourself the luxury of understanding the relevance of intelligence. It varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. The modern tendency is to feverishly avert one's eyes from this fact, but it must be reckoned with eventually. I believe we'll all be better off wh…

> [Intelligence] varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. Holy fuck. Yeah. I'm calling you out for being a racist fuck. Your "human biodiversity" aka "scientific racism" is a pseudoscience that has no basis at all. All your ideas better explained by economics. So in conclusion, fuck you.

Well, it's well-known that Ashkenazi Jews have above-average intelligence. So it definitely can vary.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#76

Post by tomp » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:45 AM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #30

cb18 wrote: post #19

So many mysteries of the modern world become quite understandable when you allow yourself the luxury of understanding the relevance of intelligence. It varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. The modern tendency is to feverishly avert one's eyes from this fact, but it must be reckoned with eventually. I believe we'll all be better off wh…

> [Intelligence] varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. Holy fuck. Yeah. I'm calling you out for being a racist fuck. Your "human biodiversity" aka "scientific racism" is a pseudoscience that has no basis at all. All your ideas better explained by economics. So in conclusion, fuck you.

Well, it's well-known that Ashkenazi Jews have above-average intelligence. So it definitely can vary. Why wouldn't it vary by race as well?

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#77

Post by sgift » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:50 AM UTC

kabouseng wrote: post #74

onion2k wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the nerdy types flocked to her and were very inclusive with team projects. That woman would have had to question why the nerdy types were so keen to include her. There's a huge difference between a motive of "Let's invite someone to our team because they're a great engineer" and "Let's invite someone to our team because they're hot and they might agree to date me once they really know me". Being keen to include s…

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

That were my thoughts too .. if they had ignored her "You see, nerds ignore women and make them feel unwelcome", now "see, they are creeps, that makes woman feel unwelcome" - and if you ask "what is your solution?" "They should behave normal." which is the most useless answer ever. If I ask ten people about normal behaviour in a given situation I get ten answers and if I drill a bit further more like 40 answers, almost all probably starting with something like "Well, in this context .." or "If you frame it this way .."

One could almost think that human behaviour is complex, but only almost .. everything is black and white, go on, nothing to see here. /s

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#78

Post by icebraining » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:53 AM UTC

blah5432 wrote: post #73

coffeandcode wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the article was really putting socially awkward white males to blame. I believe it tried to say that the diversity (or lack of it) of the field is a result of the shift in targeting a certain type of person for the programmer's job. And this accumulated over time reinforcing the notion until recently that it's sort of a no girls land. I can't help but feel that you're kinda shifting the blame when you s…

diversity (or lack of it) of the field is a result of the shift in targeting a certain type of person for the programmer's job Based on... which facts exactly? Edit: As far as I can see, the picture is that there's a bunch of socially inept males that some shadowy powers carefully select to make a mysoginistic getto to keep women at bay. This is utterly ridiculous, no matter which amount of social science "evidence"…

shadowy powers carefully select

I don't think anyone's claiming that.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#79

Post by probably_wrong » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:55 AM UTC

Yes, I am a nerd. Yes, I am socially awkward, and I did start programming around 10. And here is yet another article pointing out that all the fun I'm having in my career now is something that should make me feel ashamed or guilty. "People like you are the reason why women won't program! Why can't you go to a bar like everyone else?"

I know it's my own bias, but no one was writing articles for me when I was "sticking out like a 'sore thumb'" in HS for being smart and nerdy instead of cool.

I totally agree that there's a problem of disrespect towards those who are new (apparently more if they are women), and I'm cool with focusing on fixing that. But describing the abundance of nerds in the field as "what can we do about it?", as if that was a problem? Give me a break.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#80

Post by kami8845 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 10:55 AM UTC

tajen wrote: post #67

eaq wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the nerdy types flocked to her Is it unimaginable that this might be uncomfortable?

This is still blaming nerds for something they really can't do anything about. There's really a gap between "scientific surveys" and the terrain I've seen. In my last project as contractor there were 9 male/developers and 4 females with a management title. The meantime-to-management I've seen is 2 years after graduation for women, 7 years for males. All 15% females of my 150-student class are now in management positi…

Maybe it made more sense for the business to have you as a developer writing code and her as a manager rather than you as a manager and her writing code?