Born for it – How the image of software developers came about • Hacker News Board

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#31

Post by wrong_internet » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:42 AM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #22

cb18 wrote: post #19

So many mysteries of the modern world become quite understandable when you allow yourself the luxury of understanding the relevance of intelligence. It varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. The modern tendency is to feverishly avert one's eyes from this fact, but it must be reckoned with eventually. I believe we'll all be better off wh…

knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. This is so untrue, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. The overwhelming consensus by scientists at reputable top universities don't allege this at all. But I'm sure you can find it at fringe or less reputable state universities.

No, the consensus of scientists who actually study this is pretty strong, and supports the parent's post. Jayman has collected a nice sequence of citations on the matter, most of which are peer-reviewed:

https://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/#Race-IQ

Much effort has been made to minimize the effect of poverty, stereotyping, and other non-hereditary factors in much of the literature.

Most people downvoting the parent are likely doing so because this research is uncomfortable, not because it is wrong.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#32

Post by alex_young » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:43 AM UTC

cb18 wrote: post #19

So many mysteries of the modern world become quite understandable when you allow yourself the luxury of understanding the relevance of intelligence. It varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. The modern tendency is to feverishly avert one's eyes from this fact, but it must be reckoned with eventually. I believe we'll all be better off wh…

"groups with higher average intelligence are obviously going to win more Physics Nobels."

You mean men right? I'm sure there's no bias in that process...

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#33

Post by hueving » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:46 AM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #27

home_boi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can segment the human population in any way and assign equal power to each of these groups. Why segment the population by race? Life is inherently unfair. There will always be differences in power. The goal can't be to assign equal power to everyone because it is impossible. The best goal is to ensure that there isn't a huge difference in power. Equal opportunity provides that guarantee.

In regard to the US, the obvious answer is that some races were literally oppressed on that very basis for decades/centuries. That was not a passive activity. So is it any real surprise that it might have long-lasting effects that need active, rather than passive, countering? EDIT: your comment reads differently after your addition of the second paragraph so now I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you or answering a…

No, an individual's circumstances cannot be determined by their skin color. Forcing a company to take a candidate that is objectively worse than others with different skin colors or genitalia is stupid and makes everyone else bitter when they realize the incompetence.

Government sponsored education for the unprivileged is much better than the ham fisted bandaid of making companies match percentages of different segments.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#34

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:47 AM UTC

cb18 wrote: post #23

kenjackson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. This is so untrue, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. The overwhelming consensus by scientists at reputable top universities don't allege this at all. But I'm sure you can find it at fringe or less reputable state universities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_Science_on_Intellig... This is a false statement: The overwhelming consensus by scientists at reputable top universities don't allege this at all.

I figured that this is where it came from. These are generally fringe researchers, led by the author herself, Gottfredson.

As was commonly noted at the time... few who signed it were measurement experts. Note the lack of prestigious programs of the signatories. This is the Wall Street Journal fringe. Certainly not the mainstream of top researchers in the field.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#35

Post by DKnoll » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:50 AM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #21

DKnoll wrote: post #14

I don't disagree with the thesis of the article, but the creators of the ENIAC were given no mention and they skipped right to the 'computer girls' as if they were fully responsible for it's genesis.

Because the article isn't about the ENIAC at all. It's about how programming transitioned from being a menial (and thus women's) job, to a prestigious (and thus male) job.

Programming was a 'women's job' at the time because men were intended for combat. It's exactly the same reason women were working in factories which, in peacetime, was traditionally a men's job. This is not to say that it was right, but at the same time it wasn't due to lesser ability... it was because they were still at home and not delivering the munitions whose trajectory they were calculating.

I would like to add that suggesting that the majority of programmers were/are the 'majority' (in a societal sense) in the west is also disingenuous. It seems a bit self-serving for the author to not mention that technology, even at the time, was a place where many homosexual but otherwise 'socially-awkward, white, male programmers' thrived and made incredible bounds. If you think women suffered from marginalisation in the 40s and 50s (they did)... imagine being a homosexual.

Whether the article is about the ENIAC or not, you need to consider all facts when you make a factual statement, even if they do not serve your thesis.

Edit: sorry if I'm a bit passionate about this... I wrote my grade 5 speech on the ENIAC and I've always held the men and women who designed and operated it in incredibly high esteem. Some crazy old man said something once about 'standing on the shoulders of giants' and I feel that is very relevant when discussing the ENIAC.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#36

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:50 AM UTC

wrong_internet wrote: post #31

kenjackson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. This is so untrue, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. The overwhelming consensus by scientists at reputable top universities don't allege this at all. But I'm sure you can find it at fringe or less reputable state universities.

No, the consensus of scientists who actually study this is pretty strong, and supports the parent's post. Jayman has collected a nice sequence of citations on the matter, most of which are peer-reviewed: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/#Race-IQ Much effort has been made to minimize the effect of poverty, stereotyping, and other non-hereditary factors in much of the literature. Most people downvoting th…

That's a horrible list of mostly the race baiting circle jerk (for lack of a better term). Even a cursory glance shows that it lacks several authors who have written papers that dispute this. Coincidence? Probably not.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#37

Post by cb18 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:51 AM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #26

cb18 wrote: post #19

So many mysteries of the modern world become quite understandable when you allow yourself the luxury of understanding the relevance of intelligence. It varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously. The modern tendency is to feverishly avert one's eyes from this fact, but it must be reckoned with eventually. I believe we'll all be better off wh…

Very interested to know how you believe conflating economic, social, and geographical/geopolitical factors (e.g. clusters of poverty and their effect on upbringings) have all been filtered out of this supposed consensus conclusion.

It's called science bro, it's kind of detailed. Trust that the people doing it know what they are doing. If you'd like more information, you're free to study it.

The answer to your question is relatively straightforward though, different races raised in the same circumstances have been given IQ tests. Among other techniques.

Once again, this is a century old science, it's been thought through pretty well. Whatever confounding factor you come up with in 2 minutes, someone has likely thought of it.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#38

Post by x5n1 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:53 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #28

x5n1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously don't think there can be anything such as equal opportunity. As there is bias at every part of the hiring process. Equal representation means that more or less wealth is being directed far and wide to people that represent all groups. Having money means having power to affect policies and politics as well as economics. So for creating any sense of equality in society it's a fact that there needs to be mor…

Jobs are not for spreading wealth to different groups. If that's all Google was doing it wouldnt need any of the employees to come into the office. Companies hire people to provide services, not to be an open hand waiting for money.

No one said that, you are putting words into my mouth. Obviously any employer should hire people best qualified for the job, but there are literally thousands of people to choose from. One aspect of the choice is that it affects wealth of the individual and thereby people that are socially close and related to the individual.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#39

Post by majormajor » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:54 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #33

majormajor wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In regard to the US, the obvious answer is that some races were literally oppressed on that very basis for decades/centuries. That was not a passive activity. So is it any real surprise that it might have long-lasting effects that need active, rather than passive, countering? EDIT: your comment reads differently after your addition of the second paragraph so now I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you or answering a…

No, an individual's circumstances cannot be determined by their skin color. Forcing a company to take a candidate that is objectively worse than others with different skin colors or genitalia is stupid and makes everyone else bitter when they realize the incompetence. Government sponsored education for the unprivileged is much better than the ham fisted bandaid of making companies match percentages of different segme…

Forcing employment would be a rather extreme attempt at a remedy, but the graph here[0] illustrates rather nicely a problem that race-blind attempts at fixes will run into. What works in one environment may not work in another, and their are dramatically different environments for different races in the USA.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/08/12/black...

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#40

Post by cb18 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:54 AM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #36

wrong_internet wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the consensus of scientists who actually study this is pretty strong, and supports the parent's post. Jayman has collected a nice sequence of citations on the matter, most of which are peer-reviewed: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/#Race-IQ Much effort has been made to minimize the effect of poverty, stereotyping, and other non-hereditary factors in much of the literature. Most people downvoting th…

That's a horrible list of mostly the race baiting circle jerk (for lack of a better term). Even a cursory glance shows that it lacks several authors who have written papers that dispute this. Coincidence? Probably not.

lacks several authors

Like who? Stephen Jay Gould?

a cursory glance

Maybe you should give it a closer look so you're not resting your worldview on confirmation bias.