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Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

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Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#91
post #74
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time I bought a new bicycle, I had to try a lot of them before I found one I really enjoyed. I'd imagine world-class cyclists are even pickier than I am.

Yeah, it'd be like telling marathoners they have to wear a specific model of shoe. There's so many factors that go into comfort etc.

[deleted]

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#92

Am I the only cyclist here? I can't imagine voluntarily putting batteries in my bike on a long, mountainous stage. There's no way the batteries will last, and then I'm stuck with dead weight. And, looking through the actual documentary, I didn't see any incontrovertable thermal proof of a battery in any racer. In the guy posing for a shot, yes, but not in the cyclists laboring up the hill.

I've got about 150 Watt Hours from a ~900g battery on my cheater bike. (link below)

I dunno how much ballast a really lightly built race bike has to carry these days, but even a quarter of that energy would likely make a dramatic difference - at 25W of assistance (which is something like 10% of a rider's total long-term output) a battery 1/4 the size/weight of mine would provide 90mins of assistance. Would that be "worth" 250 odd grams (plus motor and controller as well...)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21384__ZIPPY_Comp...

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#93

Am I the only cyclist here? I can't imagine voluntarily putting batteries in my bike on a long, mountainous stage. There's no way the batteries will last, and then I'm stuck with dead weight. And, looking through the actual documentary, I didn't see any incontrovertable thermal proof of a battery in any racer. In the guy posing for a shot, yes, but not in the cyclists laboring up the hill.

The dude who was cruising up the hill without standing on his pedals seemed pretty obviously using an assist.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#94

Am I the only cyclist here? I can't imagine voluntarily putting batteries in my bike on a long, mountainous stage. There's no way the batteries will last, and then I'm stuck with dead weight. And, looking through the actual documentary, I didn't see any incontrovertable thermal proof of a battery in any racer. In the guy posing for a shot, yes, but not in the cyclists laboring up the hill.

It will obviously pay for itself in terms of energy... in the limiting case, you could just hop in a Tesla and win the race.

Hm. I love the idea of a logic proof, but is this correct? In the limit the Tesla runs out of battery and you can't push it up the hills.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#95
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern race bikes are already deadweighted to make it to the minimum weight, so it's not a question of making the bike heavier.

Not deadweighted in the amounts a battery with enough energy has to weigh.

But it's conceivable they've found ways to shave the bikes weight down even lower to accommodate the battery and motor.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If technology is integral, then why ban motors at all? Small motors and powerful compact energy supplies are technological advancements.

It's hard to disagree from my own perspective of a commuting cyclist who would like to see racing drive cycling advancement in ways that trickle down to affordably solving the last mile(s) problem for the human race, but allowing more than a single human as the source of power would simply transform the sport into something else. It's not necessarily better or worse, but using a motor is a fundamentally different act…

What about a flywheel? Probably a net negative. What about a motor with no battery. You pedal to power it? Just wondering what the limit of "human powered" is

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#97
post #8

This is the most mind-boggling cheating scandal ever. It jiggles my engineering nerves in place I didn't know was possible.

Speaking of engineering, why not either place the motor in the seat/seat-post itself which would obscure those infrared cameras (as the heat would look natural) or insulate the area around the motor and let the heat exhaust through the seat which would accomplish the same thing? Maybe they didn't think someone would bring an infrared camera....

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If technology is integral, then why ban motors at all? Small motors and powerful compact energy supplies are technological advancements.

It's a balance between man and machine, between tradition and progress. F1 racing cars would be faster if they replaced the driver with a computer. The fans want to see the skills of the driver tested, so the sport bans common driver aids like traction control and anti-lock brakes. Cycling with motors isn't cycling, it's motorcycling. Allowing motors would change the sport in an undesirable and irrevocable manner. In…

Interestingly though - those now-banned-in-F1 driver aids are all over showroom floors and making regular cars safer. (as are older technologies initially developed in top level racing - disk brakes, fuel injection, radial tires, etc...)

Racing in all it's forms is nearly always conducted under some entirely arbitrary artificial constraints (even when the rules don't enforce it, money ends up taking the same place). Sometimes those constraints are "we'll sell more cars if they all look a little bit like Fords or Chevys", sometimes they're more like "we've got home-team advantage, so we'll make the rules say you've got to sail your America's Cup contender to Newport to compete, even if you come from Europe/New Zealand instead of Rhode Island...". Sometimes the constrains are "these new 4WD supercharged Group B Rally Cars are killing too many people, lets stop racing anything that fast thru the trees - lets race showroom floor shopping trolly hatchbacks instead..."

Keep in mind that "Cycling with motors" isn't motorcycle racing either - in motorcycle racing there's engine capacity limits, number of cylinders, number of gear ratio limits, minimum weights, restrictions on brake materials, even things like limits on the number of motors used for a season and work allowed to be done on motors between races, and MotoGP are now "standardising" the engine management electronics/software as well... WorldSBK have homologation rules, where you need to sell a certain number of your racing motorcycle to the general public as road bikes to be allowed to race (modified) version in the race series. (I'm currently riding round a two stroke 125 Cagiva Mito that's a roadgoing version of the now banned/superseded 125GP bikes... These day's you've got no choice but to compete on a 250cc four stroke in that race series/class. In the past there were 8 cylinder bikes, and bikes with 16 speed gearboxes - all just history/legends now...)

A lot of "the balance" seems to end up being about money - either to stop the guy with the deepest pockets from wining everything (who'd want to go sail boat racing against Larry Ellison without some rules about how much he can spend?), or to make sure the sponsors keep pouring money into "the sport" (how many F1 rules do you suppose there are relating to drivers meeting corporate and sponsor hospitality and media requirements, rather than technical regulations about what you're allowed to race on the track?)

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#99
post #89

Am I the only cyclist here? I can't imagine voluntarily putting batteries in my bike on a long, mountainous stage. There's no way the batteries will last, and then I'm stuck with dead weight. And, looking through the actual documentary, I didn't see any incontrovertable thermal proof of a battery in any racer. In the guy posing for a shot, yes, but not in the cyclists laboring up the hill.

Have you ever used an electric assist? a 50Wh battery weighs very little[1], the motors are similarly light, even by road-bike standards. Remember that there is a minimum weight, so you have a small amount of deadweight to play around with as well. That would give a pro biker a 10%[2] increase in power usable over 1 hour of the stage. It would make the uphill parts way better while negligibly affecting flat terrain a…

Ive some of these tube-size assists are 100 watts. That could be as much 30% in sustained riding. They were designed to provide half the power for commuters.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#100
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time I bought a new bicycle, I had to try a lot of them before I found one I really enjoyed. I'd imagine world-class cyclists are even pickier than I am.

The biggest differentiator is height. I assume taller people have more muscle power hence should be put in different category.

Frame size is actually quite important for fitting a bike to a person. However, it's certainly something that could be varied within a model, just like a shoe has different sizes, or whatever. Multiple frame sizes are available on everything but the cheapest bikes - I had a choice of frame sizes on a standard Schwinn aluminum-framed bike 15 years ago.

Given the choice of 5 high-end bikes and the ability to select a proper size I don't really see a problem.

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