Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors • Hacker News Board

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#81

Post by jdietrich » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 2:47 AM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #64

Just take the bike out of the race entirely. Declare a year in advance that the bike will be XYZ model Q so people can train on them, and the race maintains custody of all race bikes, spares, etc. It's already a money-competition to see who can buy the best super-bike. Yes, you have to have a minimum weight, but that just means that you can take a superbike and spend the extra weight applying aerodynamic fairings whe…

Technology is an integral part of cycling, just as it is in motorsport. There are some one-design motorsport racing classes, but they are far from the most popular. Fans like to see innovation, we like to coo over the beautiful new machinery on display.

Some of the greatest moments in cycling are directly related to technical progress, most obviously the Obree/Boardman battle for the hour record. On one side a professional champion with a million pound superbike, on the other an unknown amateur with a bike he built himself. Many fans complain that the current regulations are too conservative and provide too little opportunity for technical innovation.

Cycle racing exists in a symbiotic relationship with cycle manufacturing. Race wins sell bikes, bike sales fund race wins. Cut the manufacturers out of the sport and they take a huge chunk of sponsorship with them.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#82

Post by dclowd9901 » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 2:50 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #81

paulmd wrote: post #64

Just take the bike out of the race entirely. Declare a year in advance that the bike will be XYZ model Q so people can train on them, and the race maintains custody of all race bikes, spares, etc. It's already a money-competition to see who can buy the best super-bike. Yes, you have to have a minimum weight, but that just means that you can take a superbike and spend the extra weight applying aerodynamic fairings whe…

Technology is an integral part of cycling, just as it is in motorsport. There are some one-design motorsport racing classes, but they are far from the most popular. Fans like to see innovation, we like to coo over the beautiful new machinery on display. Some of the greatest moments in cycling are directly related to technical progress, most obviously the Obree/Boardman battle for the hour record. On one side a profes…

If technology is integral, then why ban motors at all? Small motors and powerful compact energy supplies are technological advancements.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#83

Post by yborg » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 2:54 AM UTC

GhotiFish wrote: post #71

hondo77 wrote: post #6

No, it doesn't.

I have to agree with you here. The thermal camera footage they did show was just shockingly weak. They had one instance where there was higher than average temperatures coming off of the cogset. Which coincidentally enough is a rotating joint with the weight of a grown man pressing down on it for an entire race. Seeing heat here is not surprising.

Apparently you missed the part where they have this footage for just 2 racers out of an entire peloton.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#84

Post by nordsieck » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 2:56 AM UTC

niels_olson wrote: post #47

Am I the only cyclist here? I can't imagine voluntarily putting batteries in my bike on a long, mountainous stage. There's no way the batteries will last, and then I'm stuck with dead weight. And, looking through the actual documentary, I didn't see any incontrovertable thermal proof of a battery in any racer. In the guy posing for a shot, yes, but not in the cyclists laboring up the hill.

The thing to understand is that often times the bikes that pros ride are below the minimum weight as set by the race. They'd be carrying dead weight either way.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#85

Post by stouset » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 2:57 AM UTC

benjiweber wrote: post #44

randlet wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems trivial to detect now though. It's no problem to just tear down the bikes of the first X finishers to look for mechanical aids. Detecting doping reliably is much trickier. edit: I think most high level bikes use carbon fibre frames? You could probably just use x-ray or ultrasound imaging to look for anything suspicious in the frame.

It's quite common to switch bike with one from a support car during a stage (Due to mechanical faults or otherwise). This could make it tougher.

There's no reason the team car has to retrieve bikes swapped out.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#86

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 2:59 AM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #82

jdietrich wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is an integral part of cycling, just as it is in motorsport. There are some one-design motorsport racing classes, but they are far from the most popular. Fans like to see innovation, we like to coo over the beautiful new machinery on display. Some of the greatest moments in cycling are directly related to technical progress, most obviously the Obree/Boardman battle for the hour record. On one side a profes…

If technology is integral, then why ban motors at all? Small motors and powerful compact energy supplies are technological advancements.

[deleted]

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#87

Post by jdietrich » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 3:01 AM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #82

jdietrich wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is an integral part of cycling, just as it is in motorsport. There are some one-design motorsport racing classes, but they are far from the most popular. Fans like to see innovation, we like to coo over the beautiful new machinery on display. Some of the greatest moments in cycling are directly related to technical progress, most obviously the Obree/Boardman battle for the hour record. On one side a profes…

If technology is integral, then why ban motors at all? Small motors and powerful compact energy supplies are technological advancements.

It's a balance between man and machine, between tradition and progress.

F1 racing cars would be faster if they replaced the driver with a computer. The fans want to see the skills of the driver tested, so the sport bans common driver aids like traction control and anti-lock brakes.

Cycling with motors isn't cycling, it's motorcycling. Allowing motors would change the sport in an undesirable and irrevocable manner.

In cycling, technological progress is governed by the Lugano Charter. Technology is an intrinsic part of the sport, but it is not allowed to play a dominant role.

http://oldsite.uci.ch/imgarchive/Road/Equipment/The%20Lugano...

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#88

Post by gnaritas » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 3:01 AM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #82

jdietrich wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is an integral part of cycling, just as it is in motorsport. There are some one-design motorsport racing classes, but they are far from the most popular. Fans like to see innovation, we like to coo over the beautiful new machinery on display. Some of the greatest moments in cycling are directly related to technical progress, most obviously the Obree/Boardman battle for the hour record. On one side a profes…

If technology is integral, then why ban motors at all? Small motors and powerful compact energy supplies are technological advancements.

Because motorcycle racing is an entirely different sport.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#89

Post by aidenn0 » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 3:06 AM UTC

niels_olson wrote: post #47

Am I the only cyclist here? I can't imagine voluntarily putting batteries in my bike on a long, mountainous stage. There's no way the batteries will last, and then I'm stuck with dead weight. And, looking through the actual documentary, I didn't see any incontrovertable thermal proof of a battery in any racer. In the guy posing for a shot, yes, but not in the cyclists laboring up the hill.

Have you ever used an electric assist? a 50Wh battery weighs very little[1], the motors are similarly light, even by road-bike standards. Remember that there is a minimum weight, so you have a small amount of deadweight to play around with as well.

That would give a pro biker a 10%[2] increase in power usable over 1 hour of the stage. It would make the uphill parts way better while negligibly affecting flat terrain and downhill.

1: Maybe 300g for such a battery were it lithium polymer. Lithium primary cells can be even lighter.

2: Or 5% increase in power for 2h, &ct.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#90

Post by harlanlewis » Tue, Apr 19, 2016, 3:07 AM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #82

jdietrich wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is an integral part of cycling, just as it is in motorsport. There are some one-design motorsport racing classes, but they are far from the most popular. Fans like to see innovation, we like to coo over the beautiful new machinery on display. Some of the greatest moments in cycling are directly related to technical progress, most obviously the Obree/Boardman battle for the hour record. On one side a profes…

If technology is integral, then why ban motors at all? Small motors and powerful compact energy supplies are technological advancements.

It's hard to disagree from my own perspective of a commuting cyclist who would like to see racing drive cycling advancement in ways that trickle down to affordably solving the last mile(s) problem for the human race, but allowing more than a single human as the source of power would simply transform the sport into something else. It's not necessarily better or worse, but using a motor is a fundamentally different activity and begs all sorts of arbitrary dimensions/mass/power restrictions or else it turns into a motorcycle race. There might not be a more efficient animal than a human on a bicycle, but we don't hold a candle to a Ducati.