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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#221

Post by AnthonyMouse »

scott_s wrote: post #129
goodcanadian wrote: post #96

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. (I include that extreme bullying in it.) When a number of individual assholes are allowed to continue being assholes, and you need to have a "look out for yourself attitude", that is a systemic problem. I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you.

> Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment.

It seems to matter quite a lot to people whether harassment is characterized as gender-based or not, and we don't have any apparent evidence that it is.

Though I've never really been sure why being a jerk to someone because they're a woman should be any different than being a jerk in exactly the same way for some entirely different (yet no doubt equally stupid) reason.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#222

Post by devilsavocado »

jbmorgado wrote: post #168
vkou wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she really wanted to see the movie with you, but she actually had to take her dog to the dentist, she would have counter-offered a time and date. She was trying to brush you off, hoping you'd take the hint, without appearing confrontational. It obviously didn't work. You continued with the unwanted advances, and it made her uncomfortable.

You are making it sound like it's actually his fault that he kept asking until she actually gave a definite answer. Worst than that, some people would call that harassment and chastise me and others for victim blaming, just stating a simple fact: She should have said no. I wonder how many of these cases get into the statistics about harassment when it should just be considered simple human interaction up to the point…

I don't necessarily think that it's his fault... But try asking 100 random people on the street what it means when you ask a girl out and she responds that she is busy, and she does not suggest another date. I'd bet that at least 98 of them would say that is means she is not interested, and she is letting you down nicely. I'm kind of surprised some men don't understand that.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#223

Post by poof131 »

ElComradio wrote: post #64
QuotedForTruth wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People exist who may seem like really great bosses and nice people but are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. It is important not to think of sexual harassment as only the skeevy creep who purposely takes advantage of women he has power over (although these people definitely exist too). Women have a right to work without being sexualized at all. Many times it is well meaning, otherwise goo…

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

Office romances are fine. Even in the military, relationships between coworkers are accepted. It’s part of life. What’s not accepted is hitting on or dating your subordinates. One, it’s inappropriate since the subordinate may feel forced to comply with the advances for the sake of his or her career. And two, even when it works out and isn’t harassment, team dynamics are about to go into the toilet. Who gets the next promotion? Who gets the next good deal assignment? When the boss is dating one of the team members, any decision will be suspect. The whole thing is entirely unprofessional. An office romance between consenting coworkers is different from harassing/dating people you have power over.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#224

Post by nikolay »

Maybe in America... where people (which includes scientists) don't really have a social life. Anyway, if America becomes too hostile for scientists, I'll be happy if Europe and Russia become more attractive to people who don't want deal with bullshit and lawyers.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#225

Post by Steuard »

ElComradio wrote: post #213
Steuard wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're flirting with someone who they can fire, or hit with a damaging performance review? (Or an unjustly flattering one, for that matter.) Absolutely I'd tell them to knock it off. The possibility of things sometimes going right in that sort of situation isn't worth the cost.

If this was your friends who worked out, would you feel happy for them or scold them for setting a bad example for everyone else?

I agree that once it has worked out for folks, it's hard to say, "You shouldn't have done that." But aren't there still costs? Everyone else in the company now gets to wonder whether the lower-ranking person's raises and promotions are due to merit or just because they're in a relationship with the boss.

Beyond that, the bigger issue to my eye is that it doesn't always work out. If your boss flirts with you and you aren't interested, that puts you in an awkward position. What if saying no makes them upset with you, or just negatively colors their perception of your work in the future? (Human beings being what we are, it's hard for a negative feeling about someone in one context to be entirely compartmentalized away from our judgement about them in another.)

Also, whether it works out or not: If romantic attachments between supervisors and subordinates are an accepted part of the culture of this workplace, what are the odds that the boss's attraction to you factored into your hire? Are your colleagues aware that the boss is attracted to you? Does that undermine their confidence that you got your position based on talent? Does it undermine your confidence that you got the position for the right reasons? (Might the boss think that you owe them some sort of sexual payoff for the job? There's a comforting thought as you try to do your job.)

I'm not saying that any of those suspicions or worries are justified in most cases! I'm sure that most people do a decent job of separating their work responsibilities and their personal lives, even in these sorts of circumstances. But a culture that accepts supervisor-employee relationships invites this class of concerns in a way that a culture that prohibits them would not. (And maybe my thoughts here really are influenced by thinking about this in a grad student context: Ph.D. advisors have a truly astounding amount of power over their students' futures.)

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#226

Post by uremog »

sqldba wrote: post #4

It sounds terrible. And yet working in he unrelated field of IT I haven't seen it. I have seen a bunch of assholes in high positions though and have to put up with their idiotic demands and abuse. So when I read these articles I wonder if it's the same people and how they translate treating male workers like garbage into treating female workers like garbage. It's not misogyny; it's welcome to the workforce and dealin…

I know some past male coworkers who were general assholes to both men and women. But out of those, the women got it much worse. Like in the article, these men were often in some kind of "good ol' boys" club - friends with important people, etc. So yeah, it happens (IT/CS field).

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#227

Post by arcticfox »

nikolay wrote: post #224

Maybe in America... where people (which includes scientists) don't really have a social life. Anyway, if America becomes too hostile for scientists, I'll be happy if Europe and Russia become more attractive to people who don't want deal with bullshit and lawyers.

Most Americans don't really have a social life? News to me...

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#228

Post by rayiner »

ElComradio wrote: post #213
Steuard wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're flirting with someone who they can fire, or hit with a damaging performance review? (Or an unjustly flattering one, for that matter.) Absolutely I'd tell them to knock it off. The possibility of things sometimes going right in that sort of situation isn't worth the cost.

If this was your friends who worked out, would you feel happy for them or scold them for setting a bad example for everyone else?

At best you get a relationship with an improper power dynamic embedded in it. I can't imagine any workplace would even allow that to continue.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#229

Post by ksenzee »

peterwwillis wrote: post #159

> "Until recently, we have tiptoed cautiously around these discussions for the most part" [Mia] Looking for feedback from women on this one: why would one tiptoe around this issue, rather than shouting it from the rooftops? It seems so counter-intuitive.

One reason: It's dangerous to shout it from the rooftops because a lot of people will accuse you of lying. Being branded a false accuser can be fatal to your career.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#230

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

graycat wrote: post #212

I've been a prof: Academics is awash in non-objective pushing and shoving that, yes, affects careers. In academics, even high end universities, a lot of the nasty behavior of middle school is still alive and well. Added to that is grown up politics, professional jealousy, professional competition with sabotage, and, also, no doubt, sexual harassment as in the OP. I can't speak first hand about sexual harassment becau…

This is what "being part of the problem" looks like.
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