Live data from Hacker News

For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

broadly.vice.com

211–220 of 402 posts

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dick jokes in the workplace are ok. Serious question, why wouldn't they be?

I think keeping jokes about genitalia and other sexually explicit topics out of the workplace is a pretty reasonable line to draw. The problem isn't that dick jokes are categorically offensive, rather, the problem arises because, when this type of behavior is permitted, there is always someone lacking social intelligence or boundaries who takes it way too far and creates a complicated ambiguity regarding what type of…

I never really liked the the logic that the rest of us can't do a certian thing because there are some other people can't be trusted. Here's a thought, instead of messing with every guy or girl for an innocent joke, just you know, deal with the person who takes it too far?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#212
I've been a prof: Academics is awash in non-objective pushing and shoving that, yes, affects careers. In academics, even high end universities, a lot of the nasty behavior of middle school is still alive and well. Added to that is grown up politics, professional jealousy, professional competition with sabotage, and, also, no doubt, sexual harassment as in the OP.

I can't speak first hand about sexual harassment because I'm a normal male and never knowingly harassed a female. But, gee, right, there were some times: (1) I was chair of the college computer committee, and she was in the administration and invited me to her office to talk about computing. She leaned back in her chair, put her feet up on her desk aimed at me so that I could see under her skirt and said "My husband and I have an open marriage". Well, my wife and I don't. (2) I was a consultant, say, an applied statistician, in a computing center, and a new prof on campus in sociology with some survey data came to see me about processing the data. She started talking about finding things in her data and said that she was "looking for sex". Then she kept saying she was "looking for sex". Gee, those women were trying to harass me sexually? No, I didn't have any "nightmares"!

Similar things can go on in parts of business.

My mother used to say that a young woman should carry a six inch long, sharp hat pin and be prepared to insert it into any man who got too fresh. We're talking an old story. Maybe I should start a Web site to sell long, sharp hat pins with some instructions on usage.

If we could get rid of all the sexual harassment, then we will discover that, once have some good work, others afraid of losing out in competition will start to fight back, with whispering campaigns, sabotage, gang behavior, etc.

I saw one female prof have a nice little tactic: She never said anything about her research. So, she never gave anyone any hint about what she was doing. Then, suddenly, in one 12 month period, she published five nice papers in one of the best journals in the field. Presto. Bingo. In a baseball analogy, she had hit a home run, or call it a grand slam, had rounded all the bases, and was home free. Five papers in one of the best journals one year? Tough to fight with that, i.e., whispering campaigns mostly won't work. BTW, I was the faculty member who proposed hiring her -- her qualifications looked good to me.

Is being a prof a nice job? Not very.

For one, it's super tough to get paid well enough to buy a nice house and do well supporting a family. Even if get tenure, that doesn't mean that your salary has to keep up with inflation. It can seem better just to be in business, e.g., start and own a successful business, where actually make some money and can accumulate it for some real financial security.

Second, really, to get very far in academics, have to pay close attention to money anyway -- have to get grants. So, can begin to feel like are in business anyway.

Third, in business, it's fairly easy to know how to keep score -- the units are dollars. In academics, we're talking numbers of papers, numbers of invited talks, numbers of journal editorships, number of dollars of grant money, prestige, number of citations, etc. So, it's tough to count and/or compare. For a successful business owner, the criteria are simpler to count and compare -- e.g., a bank statement or, if you will, an account's report.

I have always felt protective of girls and women, and I hate to see them have "nightmares" over anything. But, honey, and I say this out of 100% affection, caring, and respect, out in the real world, there is lots of pushing and shoving, and there still will be even without men trying to kiss you, knocking on your hotel room door at 3 AM, sending you suggestive messages, etc.

Or to borrow from and paraphrase E. Fromm in The Art of Loving, "For humans, the fundamental problem in life is responding to the anxiety from our realization that alone we are vulnerable to the hostile forces of nature and society. The first recommended solution is love of spouse." Well, honey, and, again, I mean this with full affection, caring, and respect, one of the "hostile forces of society" is the nearly eternal force of men pursuing friendship, affection, sex, domination, etc.

For such men, part of the solution is a ready supply of clear, loud statements "No. Stop. Quit.". For more, there is that long, sharp hat pin. For more, be in a public place and scream. For more, be with some girlfriends.

Indeed, one of Fromm's other recommended solutions is "membership in a group". It's easy to remember the TV ads for the TV show The Babysitters Club with six or eight very pretty teenage girls walking on a sidewalk close together with each girl trying harder than all the others to be in the center of the group -- it was herd formation, and the TV people believed that it was credible. So, right, females tend "form herds", look like herd animals, and with good reason: They have more safety in a herd, as a member of a "group". So, right, form groups via Twitter, Facebook, fora, one to one e-mail, face to face, etc.

E.g., it was totally clear to a girl I knew of 12, and one of her girlfriends of 11, each about 100 pounds, that they would feel much safer with me, 6' 3" and 14, if they were together and in a public place instead of alone with me in private. Since those girls of 11 and 12 knew about the safety of being in a public place and not alone instead of in a private place and alone, I'm sure the women of the OP can understand that. So, use that tactic.

But, still, honey, that's not nearly the only problem you will face out in the real world. And, again, notice Fromm's first recommended solution -- "love of spouse". That is, have a good marriage with a good husband.

Honey, for a lot of the problems you face in the outside world, sexual harassment is one of the easiest to deal with because (A) it is relatively easy to prove (e.g., smartphone and message recordings), (B) in its more serious forms is very definitely seriously illegal, i.e., you can hire a lawyer, and (C) there is the solution of that hat pin, or just your long, sharp fingernails. But for whispering campaigns, jealousy, sabotage, gang up behavior, etc., defense is more difficult.

Honey, definitely you should protect yourself, and you do have some strong means. But out in the real world some guy trying to get too close to you is not your biggest problem and not what any nightmares, if there are to be any, should be about. Honey, relax; you are overreacting to the wrong thing.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

If they're flirting with someone who they can fire, or hit with a damaging performance review? (Or an unjustly flattering one, for that matter.) Absolutely I'd tell them to knock it off. The possibility of things sometimes going right in that sort of situation isn't worth the cost.

If this was your friends who worked out, would you feel happy for them or scold them for setting a bad example for everyone else?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People exist who may seem like really great bosses and nice people but are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. It is important not to think of sexual harassment as only the skeevy creep who purposely takes advantage of women he has power over (although these people definitely exist too). Women have a right to work without being sexualized at all. Many times it is well meaning, otherwise goo…

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

Mature adults stop flirting when it is clear the other party is not interested.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#215
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she really wanted to see the movie with you, but she actually had to take her dog to the dentist, she would have counter-offered a time and date. She was trying to brush you off, hoping you'd take the hint, without appearing confrontational. It obviously didn't work. You continued with the unwanted advances, and it made her uncomfortable.

I actually ended up asking her what was going on, specifically, "Am I bad at taking hints?" At that point, I should think a simple yes would have done fine. Making someone feel like a rapist for believing what is said or failing to correctly second guess is just weird and oppressive in itself.

Think about it another way, if a girl asked you out and you didn't want to go out with her, what would you do? Sure, some of us, like some woman, don't really care and will just shut it down, but many of us would just make an excuse so we're not outright rude.

Either way, learn by being told, or learn by using empathy, if she doesn't counter offer it was a no. Once you've had your 3rd no, you're that creepy guy fyi.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#216
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although the site you linked is titled "Sexual Harassment", it appears to me to be talking about harassment in general > Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature. Even if I am misreading this, I would rather call it "sexist harassment" to make clear that is not itself of a sexual nature.

The very next paragraph: "Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general." This is what the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission considers "sexual harassment". You may not like these definitions, but this is the government's definition of "sexual…

You can define anything to be anything when you're in the outrage porn business, but unrealistic descriptions meant to stoke emotion don't help to solve actual problems, they just make for more outrage porn.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#217

In the present day and age, where PhD supervisors are given massive amounts of power over their graduate students, such incidents are all too commonplace. Put more institutional safeguards on the process of awarding doctoral degrees to protect both sides of the inequality.

I wonder, and this me genuinely wondering without an assumed answer, if some of the issues we're seeing with gender inequality in 'traditionally male dominated' lines of study and work might be due to the type of people drawn to those fields. I'm not going all men's rights or saying anything is acceptable but if you took a (painfully?) stereotypical set of physicists, technologists, etc. they would probably be male,…

> I'm not going all men's rights or saying anything is acceptable but if you took a (painfully?) stereotypical set of physicists, technologists, etc. they would probably be male, on the autism spectrum/socially awkward in general, and likely have spent the majority of their time around the same types of people (smart, socially awkward men/boys). Could part of it be from social cues they may not have learned along the way since they likely spent a good portion of their time out of the 'normal' stream of socialization

If this were some sort of low-budget situation comedy, maybe, but we're talking about the real world here. Go read about, for example, Geoff Marcy:

"""“He would stroke my arm or my neck while going over information, standing very close,” Borland told BuzzFeed News. He would also play with her hair or brush up against her with his legs, she said, “often resulting in his crotch touching me.”

Because Marcy was a vocal supporter of women in science, “it was contradictory in my head that he could have bad intentions,” Borland said. “But at the same time, it just felt so uncomfortable that after a few times I had to tell him to stop.” """

(note I haven't read the buzzfeed article as I've been following this story on astronomy blogs such as http://womeninastronomy.blogspot.com/2016/04/sexual-harassme...)

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think keeping jokes about genitalia and other sexually explicit topics out of the workplace is a pretty reasonable line to draw. The problem isn't that dick jokes are categorically offensive, rather, the problem arises because, when this type of behavior is permitted, there is always someone lacking social intelligence or boundaries who takes it way too far and creates a complicated ambiguity regarding what type of…

I never really liked the the logic that the rest of us can't do a certian thing because there are some other people can't be trusted. Here's a thought, instead of messing with every guy or girl for an innocent joke, just you know, deal with the person who takes it too far?

My point is that determining what constitutes "too far" is fraught with ambiguous subjective analysis. Who is the arbiter of what is too far in terms of comedy? Pretty much nobody has an issue with "an innocent joke" by definition, but sexually explicit comedy often tows the line of "innocent" (which is usually what makes it funny), and attempting to disentangle the clever sexual comedy from the inappropriate sexual comedy is a pandora's box not worth opening in the workplace. Just keep sexual jokes and commentary to yourself in the office.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#219
There's a long-standing overrepresentation of women in solar astronomy. Why? It was previously thought unthinkably inappropriate that women should spend the nite in the observatory alone with men. So, to do astronomy many were pushed towards daytime astronomy, which pretty much restricts you to study the sun. Even today solar astronomy is largely dominated by women, demonstrating that historical biases propagate into the modern day.

It's disappointing to think that female astronomer's fear of sexual harassment is well-founded and persists to this day.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#220
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biology is one of the most female-friendly STEM fields out there. I've met female biologists, plenty of them. The article describes astrophysics as 90%, 95% male at many of these universities. I think it's likely that the issues aren't quite as systemic in fields which are a little more diverse, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't a cultural, systemic one in astrophysics.

I get what you are saying; however, I have not witnessed this behaviour (perhaps, because I am male). If it was really a cultural, systemic problem in astrophysics, I feel like I would have noticed. [EDIT: I don't mean to imply that the problem is not real, only that I am surprised and disappointed] As for the diversity of the field, I believe it is getting more diverse. The gender ratio of graduate students in astro…

Astronomy is currently going through a series of very high-profile covered-up sexual harassment cases. Have you not heard about them?

http://www.nature.com/news/astronomy-roiled-again-by-sexual-...

I don't know why you think you would notice sexual harassment happening. The obvious explanation for incidents like the ones we're talking about is that abusers are good at hiding it from the people they aren't abusing!

Post reply on HN