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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#191

Post by stcredzero »

fweespee_ch wrote: post #180
stcredzero wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the issue is when it comes to the male boss/female employee dynamic is those power trips frequently take on a sexual dynamic in private. Dominance is messily tied into sexuality. This plays out in school locker rooms and boarding school dormitories. I know one manager I used to work with who seemed nice but literally every single hire he has made has been an asian female. So what? In itself, this shouldn…

> So what? In itself, this shouldn't be a significant factor. 1) He is clearly hiring based on a fetish he has. 2) They were hired to replace male, white, african-american, or hispanic members of his department over a period of ~2 years. The area is almost entirely a white and/or hispanic population so there is no way this is coincidence. 3) The odds of a guy rolling the same 20 sided die 12 times and always coming u…

1) He is clearly hiring based on a fetish he has.

That's a pretty strong, even in terms of your analysis. Would you have thought he had a fetish if all of his hires were black men?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#192

Post by kitd »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #171
kitd wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? The kind who think that the real world is just an extension of the school playground.

Interesting point. And why isn't it? Why is the 'real world' run according to some narrow set of safe-and-happy rules that insecure people make up? Just being 'devil's advocate' here. Sales people know, you get what you negotiate, not what you deserve. Anything else is a fantasy. Extend that to every facet of the working world, and you have the 'school playground' all over again.

One would hope that when you have left the school playground and entered the "real world", you have developed enough sense of empathy and social skills to understand the long-term benefit of treating people with respect, ie how you would want to be treated yourself. We do spend much time and effort drilling this into infants after all.

Those who don't, ie who find it ok to use/abuse others (or can't stop themselves) for personal profit/pleasure, I would term social freeloaders.

It's sad that this seems to extend to middle age in some people. And that grown-up institutions need processes to deal with problems that should have been sorted out in kindergarten.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#193

Post by ownagefool »

ainiriand wrote: post #82
ownagefool wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you find it wrong in general or wrong in a professional setting?

In general. Women should not be shown as objects, prices, decoration, etc... It is bad for all the women and puts us the men in a false superior position.

That's interesting. What do you think woman who do this or desire to be viewed like this?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#194

Post by Razengan »

scott_s wrote: post #162
goodcanadian wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said she hadn't experienced sexual harassment. You are correct that the bullying constituted harassment. I was not trying to say that it doesn't exist; I was just trying to offer my thoughts on the article. The title says, "For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare." I have worked in Astronomy my entire career, but I have not seen it at all (perhaps, because I am male). My wife works in a di…

My point is that the harassment your wife has experienced may in fact be sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is not limited to harassment of a sexual nature. If the harassment was because she is a woman, that falls under sexual harassment as well: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

His wife experienced gender discrimination, not sexual harassment.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#195

Post by Razengan »

scott_s wrote: post #162
goodcanadian wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said she hadn't experienced sexual harassment. You are correct that the bullying constituted harassment. I was not trying to say that it doesn't exist; I was just trying to offer my thoughts on the article. The title says, "For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare." I have worked in Astronomy my entire career, but I have not seen it at all (perhaps, because I am male). My wife works in a di…

My point is that the harassment your wife has experienced may in fact be sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is not limited to harassment of a sexual nature. If the harassment was because she is a woman, that falls under sexual harassment as well: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

His wife experienced gender discrimination, not sexual harassment.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#196

Post by s_kilk »

kitd wrote: post #158
mooseburger wrote: post #49

These harassment cases are so mysterious to me. What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? I mean, I would like to help somehow, but I don't know anyone like that.

> What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? The kind who think that the real world is just an extension of the school playground.

I put it a different way:

Everyone else is just furniture in their world.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#197

Post by scott_s »

yorwba wrote: post #183
scott_s wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the harassment your wife has experienced may in fact be sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is not limited to harassment of a sexual nature. If the harassment was because she is a woman, that falls under sexual harassment as well: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

Although the site you linked is titled "Sexual Harassment", it appears to me to be talking about harassment in general > Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature. Even if I am misreading this, I would rather call it "sexist harassment" to make clear that is not itself of a sexual nature.

The very next paragraph:

"Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general."

This is what the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission considers "sexual harassment". You may not like these definitions, but this is the government's definition of "sexual harassment".

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#198

Post by deong »

cmdrfred wrote: post #24
ainiriand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A shirt that depicts women as objects or objectized women is just plain wrong. I do not care about the celebration.

Your right lets throw a blanket over Michelangelo's David and head home to our safe spaces.

As stated by no less than the supreme court, we all recognize the difference between Michelangelo and Larry Flynt.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#199

Post by stcredzero »

scott_s wrote: post #157
stcredzero wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" There's some kind of weird disconnect in our society here. I've been in the position where I've asked a colleague out to a movie, but she gave a plausible sounding excuse each time. I stopped asking when she finally definitely said "no," but she did so with language that made me feel like she thought me a rapist. No means no, but white lies s…

I would not call it a "weird disconnect". It's just very awkward to give a flat-out "No" when asked out, even when the two people are not coworkers. When it comes to asking someone out, there are three answers: Yes; Yes in principle, but I'm not available then, how about next Tuesday?; all other answers are No. She was probably frustrated that you weren't picking up on this, and probably did feel uncomfortable that s…

If sounding like "yes in principle" is the goal of your speech, then how can one reasonably expect to feel violated when that speech is taken as "yes in principle?"

I like "no means no" as a principle. I wish everyone stood up boldly for the right to say "no." Do this by boldly saying no. The right to say yes but really mean no is something else entirely, and is corrosive to the right to say no.

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