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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#151
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise the shirt was given to him by a female colleague/friend right?

You do realise that a woman can be wrong about women's rights, right?

This is an under-recognized point. Women can definitely undermine women's interests.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#152
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is personal experience but the most sexual jokes I've heard in person in the workplace came from women. And I found them rather funny. But to each their own I guess.

Do you understand the difference between women making sexual jokes and men making them?

>> Do you understand the difference between women making sexual jokes and men making them?

No, I don't think in sexist terms.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...unprocessed "rape kits" being but one concrete evidence... The size of the "backlog" is an impressive number, but it was my understanding that it is primarily due to policies that lead to collection by default - regardless of actual need. Like when the perpetrator of the crime confesses, or when the DA determines that the rape kit isn't evidence of rape. Collecting by default makes sense as it is a time sensitiv…

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2015/... > Forensic experts at the Michigan State Police have been helping to clear the backlog, with the help of millions of dollars in funding appropriated by the Legislature. > Worthy said Detroit's kit-testing initiative has identified 2,616 suspects — including 477 serial rapists — and that 21 convictions have been secured. She said 106 cases are actively be…

Like I said, the numbers are impressive, but they don't really provide much information. Look at the way that sentence is structured: those "identified", were they previously unknown? I think the 21 convictions is the only real meaningful part of that story - because the meaning is unambiguous. While it is a shame that a rapist can run around free while evidence is in hand, (21 / 11341) x 100 = 0.19%. Not nearly as impressive as "11,341 examples of why cops don't care!".

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A shirt that depicts women as objects or objectized women is just plain wrong. I do not care about the celebration.

Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11373316

I think brudgers's advice is excellent, and I would encourage you again to take it. I hope this doesn't sound too pushy, it's just a suggestion.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#155
post #43

It's amazing that sexual harassment (or any kind of harassment, really) can survive the era of the cell phone recording? Allegations of misbehavior carry far more weight, once there is a recording that can tickle people's sense of voyeurism and outrage.

> It's amazing that sexual harassment (or any kind of harassment, really) can survive the era of the cell phone recording? In some jurisdictions it's illegal to record someone without their knowledge or permission, so the victim of the harassment can get nailed to the wall for trying to gather evidence to support their case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_recording_by_civil...

Do you have an example of when this occurred?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#156
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" There's some kind of weird disconnect in our society here. I've been in the position where I've asked a colleague out to a movie, but she gave a plausible sounding excuse each time. I stopped asking when she finally definitely said "no," but she did so with language that made me feel like she thought me a rapist. No means no, but white lies s…

If she really wanted to see the movie with you, but she actually had to take her dog to the dentist, she would have counter-offered a time and date. She was trying to brush you off, hoping you'd take the hint, without appearing confrontational. It obviously didn't work. You continued with the unwanted advances, and it made her uncomfortable.

I actually ended up asking her what was going on, specifically, "Am I bad at taking hints?" At that point, I should think a simple yes would have done fine. Making someone feel like a rapist for believing what is said or failing to correctly second guess is just weird and oppressive in itself.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual harassment is harassment. I don't mean to sound trite, but it's literally true. Politely asking a peer out on a date, ONCE, is not harassment. Even though it might be a little uncomfortable in the moment, that can pass if everyone acts professionally regardless of the outcome. Examples of harassment include: - asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" - propositioning someone fo…

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" There's some kind of weird disconnect in our society here. I've been in the position where I've asked a colleague out to a movie, but she gave a plausible sounding excuse each time. I stopped asking when she finally definitely said "no," but she did so with language that made me feel like she thought me a rapist. No means no, but white lies s…

I would not call it a "weird disconnect". It's just very awkward to give a flat-out "No" when asked out, even when the two people are not coworkers. When it comes to asking someone out, there are three answers: Yes; Yes in principle, but I'm not available then, how about next Tuesday?; all other answers are No. She was probably frustrated that you weren't picking up on this, and probably did feel uncomfortable that she had to keep rejecting you.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#158

These harassment cases are so mysterious to me. What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? I mean, I would like to help somehow, but I don't know anyone like that.

> What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok?

The kind who think that the real world is just an extension of the school playground.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#159
> "Until recently, we have tiptoed cautiously around these discussions for the most part" [Mia]

Looking for feedback from women on this one: why would one tiptoe around this issue, rather than shouting it from the rooftops? It seems so counter-intuitive.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#160
post #126

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

Biology is one of the most female-friendly STEM fields out there. I've met female biologists, plenty of them. The article describes astrophysics as 90%, 95% male at many of these universities. I think it's likely that the issues aren't quite as systemic in fields which are a little more diverse, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't a cultural, systemic one in astrophysics.

I get what you are saying; however, I have not witnessed this behaviour (perhaps, because I am male). If it was really a cultural, systemic problem in astrophysics, I feel like I would have noticed. [EDIT: I don't mean to imply that the problem is not real, only that I am surprised and disappointed]

As for the diversity of the field, I believe it is getting more diverse. The gender ratio of graduate students in astronomy is apparently about 50/50. Hopefully, over the next several years the numbers in faculty positions will improve also. I have worked with a great number of highly capable women because as a technologist, I often wind up working with the graduate students rather than the principle investigators.

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