For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare • Hacker News Board

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#81

Post by snowwrestler » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

rokhayakebe wrote: post #31

Ask Women: What counts as sexual harassment? Is it "Let's go out this weekend?" or is it a comment about body parts below the neck, or is it physical?

Sexual harassment is harassment. I don't mean to sound trite, but it's literally true.

Politely asking a peer out on a date, ONCE, is not harassment. Even though it might be a little uncomfortable in the moment, that can pass if everyone acts professionally regardless of the outcome.

Examples of harassment include:

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no"

- propositioning someone for sex--different from asking out on a date in that it is more sexually explicit

- subtly or not-so-subtly suggesting that you have leverage over them--for example, a boss asking out a direct report and mentioning that their performance review is coming up

- making repeated comments of a sexual nature or about a person's body, i.e. "wow Suzie you look so hot in that dress" (if that happens ONLY ONCE and never again, that's not likely to be harassment, but those sorts of things very rarely happen ONLY ONCE)

- putting the other person into uncomfortable situations--following them into the bathroom, following them to their car at night, stopping by their home unexpectedly, etc.

- pointless, uninvited touching or rubbing--like walking up behind a colleague and starting a shoulder run without asking first (and respecting "no" if that's the answer)

- if you want more examples, just read the Vice story linked at the top here

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#82

Post by ainiriand » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

ownagefool wrote: post #20

ainiriand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A shirt that depicts women as objects or objectized women is just plain wrong. I do not care about the celebration.

Do you find it wrong in general or wrong in a professional setting?

In general. Women should not be shown as objects, prices, decoration, etc... It is bad for all the women and puts us the men in a false superior position.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#83

Post by ceejayoz » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #32

ainiriand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A shirt that depicts women as objects or objectized women is just plain wrong. I do not care about the celebration.

Objectification doesn't really apply to a still image. The whole trope was initially about women in media being the object of the male character's conquest. Essentially the women were turned into nothing more than props. A t-shirt depicting scantily clad women may be in poor taste and likely isn't professional, but doesn't really contribute to the objectification of women. Women are allowed to be sexualised (just as…

> Objectification doesn't really apply to a still image.

What the what? Care to elaborate on how that works?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#84

Post by corford » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:32 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #36

corford wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise the shirt was given to him by a female colleague/friend right?

So what? If a black friend gives me a shirt with the N-word on it, that doesn't mean I should wear it at work .

Context is key. I haven't followed this shirt brouhaha in any serious depth but I assume that all of his colleagues and management saw him wearing the shirt before he delivered his talk. AFAIK it became a problem afterwards. So, if you (not me) want to equate a shirt with female characters on it to a shirt with the N-word on it then, yes, if the workplace context was right why not wear it at work (e.g. I'm thinking an indie record label or similar environment with black, white, whatever people working together as a tight team and a black friend of a white guy bought him said t-shirt).

Ultimately, it's up to the guy wearing the t-shirt to make a judgement call as to whether doing so would offend or not offend his friends and colleagues. So: context, relationship with everyone else at the place he works at, balanced sensitivity etc.

If he honestly (not deliberately) makes the wrong call, he should apologise and everyone should move on. Work is a place for adults, not children on a lynching party.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#85

Post by vkou » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:32 PM UTC

ElComradio wrote: post #64

QuotedForTruth wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People exist who may seem like really great bosses and nice people but are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. It is important not to think of sexual harassment as only the skeevy creep who purposely takes advantage of women he has power over (although these people definitely exist too). Women have a right to work without being sexualized at all. Many times it is well meaning, otherwise goo…

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

Depending on the circumstances, asking someone out for a coffee is one thing. Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#86

Post by mooseburger » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:33 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #62

mooseburger wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's art. The shirt was also made by a woman, for what it's worth.

Nude paintings are also art, but if you hang a couple in your office, you'll have a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Really? I would fight that lawsuit tooth and nail. Neo-puritanism makes my blood boil.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#87

Post by ar0 » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

sqldba wrote: post #4

It sounds terrible. And yet working in he unrelated field of IT I haven't seen it. I have seen a bunch of assholes in high positions though and have to put up with their idiotic demands and abuse. So when I read these articles I wonder if it's the same people and how they translate treating male workers like garbage into treating female workers like garbage. It's not misogyny; it's welcome to the workforce and dealin…

What a strange comparison. I have had my fair share of less than stellar bosses, but just by virtue of being male none of them tried to touch me, invite me to a date or told me to wear sexier clothing in order for the client meeting to be more successful.

Yes, it can very well be that the same people are treating male workers like garbage and treating female workers like garbage, it's just that when you are male, this mistreatment is restricted to the work place and non-physical, which makes it far less intrusive (I would guess... I am male so it is hard for me to really relate with women in such situations, but I do know that I would freak out if my boss would try to touch me!).

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#88

Post by sp332 » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

ElComradio wrote: post #64

QuotedForTruth wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People exist who may seem like really great bosses and nice people but are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. It is important not to think of sexual harassment as only the skeevy creep who purposely takes advantage of women he has power over (although these people definitely exist too). Women have a right to work without being sexualized at all. Many times it is well meaning, otherwise goo…

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

They have a right to, but they can waive the right voluntarily.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#89

Post by LoSboccacc » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

woodman wrote: post #74

LoSboccacc wrote: post #26

this: > Universities, Mia notes, have protocols for dealing with complaints of sexual harassment seems part of the problem. sexual harassment should be a 'go straight to police' offence, not a hr reprimand. if the problem is as widespread as it's made in the article, it cannot correct from within.

This is the sort of thinking that leads to people calling 911 for disputes relating to McNuggets. Calling in armed mediators is not likely to improve your situation.

it was a short-hand for all the nuances applicable, I think I just badly translated a local way of speech

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#90

Post by ainiriand » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #24

ainiriand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A shirt that depicts women as objects or objectized women is just plain wrong. I do not care about the celebration.

Your right lets throw a blanket over Michelangelo's David and head home to our safe spaces.

This is not about how the art was made some centuries ago. In that time all women had a hard time chosing even their own lives, couples and rights. It is about the current fight and rights.