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How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

51–60 of 94 posts

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#51
post #46
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utterly unpersuasive. The reasoning in that Quora response means that "harasser" and "wrong" are also slurs, because the Quora response equates denigration with "slur territory". As an ongoing fact in my life, I've noticed that (a) I use words like "crazy" in broad and insulting ways, and that (b) some people seem to complain about it. And I'm open to being persuaded that I ought to change my ways. But I haven't yet…

First about violence: You're wrong. Mental illness does not predict violent behaviour. Someone with a mental illness is not more likely to hurt you than someone without a mental illness. This is very clear from all the statistics we have. You not knowing this is a concrete example of your ignorance of mental illness. The fact that you don't care that vulnerable people are frequently the victims of violent crime (and…

> First about violence: You're wrong

Wrong about what? What claim did I make that's wrong? Oh, wait, you're just assuming that I disagree with you, so that you can be mad. You assume that I assume that mental illness predicts mental behaviour, but I said nothing of the kind. I think? Right?

> Mental illness does not predict violent behaviour.

That's an interesting claim (interesting in the sense that I am interested, but not yet convinced). Two minutes of googling found mild disagreement with your claim, and was in general utterly consistent with my previous beliefs (e.g. [0]). Care to cite evidence in favour of your claim? If it turns out that you're correct about the facts, I'm interested in knowing more.

[0] http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/about-us/reports-stud...

Note, btw, that while the summary at that link makes it look like you're right, when you read the actual findings, it says the opposite of what you claimed.

So, unlike when I wrote the previous comment, now I have started to believe that mental illness _does_, to a small degree, predict slightly increased violent behaviour, though not nearly as much as being young or male or substance-abusing, all of which are about as surprising as the sun rising in the morning.

> The fact that you don't care that vulnerable people are frequently the victims of violent crime

This sentence is you being an asshole. Please stop. Obviously I meant "when I am assessing whether or not I should consider mentally ill people dangerous, what I am concerned with is whether or not I should not consider mentally ill people dangerous, as opposed to some other issue which is unrelated for the purposes of my security". Obviously I did not mean "In general I care about no one but myself" or some other farcical interpretation which no one would admit to in public.

> But in this thread someone isn't saying "these behaviours are crazy", they're saying "these people are crazies".

That is not a correct description of this thread. My comment was a reply to a comment that contained a link, which talked entirely about whether or not it was okay to call people and behaviour crazy. Did you follow the link and read the argument? Your description of "this thread" is a correct description of the original word used in the title of TFA, but the conversation is at this point broader than that. I dunno if I personally have ever called anyone "a crazy", but maybe I have.

> by describing people who do things you don't understand as "crazies" you're promoting stigma against mental illness

I'm not at all convinced that that's true. I think it promotes stigma against the behaviour characterized as "crazy". And I think it's pretty clear that that's what is happening in TFA's title: online harassment is being implicitly characterized as so inappropriate that it brings into question the health of the brain that committed it. I'm in favour of that implicit characterization.

> Another reason: ..... You're inadvertently insulting your friends

I don't agree that I'm insulting the friends, and family, and loved ones, and self, that I know, with mental illness. (You're so cute in your assumption that I'm in the privileged group.) If we're all getting along fine, maybe the problem is you. Or maybe you're right, and I misunderstand everything, and the problem is me. But just stating your implausible claim over and over again is frustratingly unpersuasive.

Thank you, by the way, for not getting distracted by the claim about violence, and after making your comment about it, moving on to the more interesting main point.

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#52
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that this time next week / month / year someone will take huge offence to the terms 'weird' or 'bizarre'. This is a witch hunt and the target is any word that can be used to differentiate. We need to remember that we do not have a right to be offended.

No, stop that line of thinking. Please. When someone is called crazy, they're making a parallel to a crazy person on a train screaming about how they didn't take their meds. When someone who has legitimate mental health issues is called crazy, it makes light of a very serious issue that's incredibly difficult. It has next to nothing to do with being offended. We all accept that we have issues that we're mostly able t…

> When someone is called crazy, they're making a parallel to a crazy person on a train screaming about how they didn't take their meds.

I do not agree that this is what is intended, or heard, by the overwhelming majority of speakers of English, when that word is used. It seems to me, with a great deal of (fallible) confidence, that people usually mean something much less extreme.

> When someone who has legitimate mental health issues is called crazy, it makes light of a very serious issue

I do not agree that it makes light of the issue. I don't understand what is light-making about it. I do think that it puts the problem in a tidy pigeonhole, which the actual problem probably doesn't fit into. But people do not have infinite cognitive resources, and so they oversimplify things when they think they can get away with it, and as far as I can tell, this is one of those cases. That's not "making light", it's just "not paying a ton of attention".

Perhaps I'm wrong about either of both of those things. That would be a powerful and relevant-to-my-interests case for you to make, and were to you be successful at updating my belief, I would be grateful.

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#53
post #33
post #15

There's a simple solution: Don't use real names online. That eliminates meatspace threats, if done properly. And then compartmentalize. For risky stuff, create new personas. In worst case, just burn them down.

That's not how public figures work. Influential public figures are influential largely because they are credible. Credibility requires history. Anonymity precludes history. Take Jeff for example. Jeff has a history. Jeff is a credible game developer with an impressive development history. He's a known factor in the creative community. He's got credibility out the wazoo. As such, we give his words extra weight because…

Anonymity precludes history. Pseudonymity doesn't.

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#54
post #48
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for the double post, I just wanted to comment on your last point. Holy shit. Just because someone has a mental health issue doesn't mean they're violent. Everyone I know who has mental health issues are the friendliest people I know. This is the exact sort of attitude that makes issues with HR incredibly difficult. And trust me, it is unbearably difficult . I can't explain how many times and how frustrating it…

I don't mind the double-post, but I'll reply to both of them at once. I have mental health issues. Nearly everyone I care about has mental health issues. Some of those issues are moderately serious problems, some are minor annoyances. It sucks having problems. I'm sad you have problems. I'm sad I have problems. I hope your problems resolve themselves, and/or you learn better coping strategies, and that life is as nic…

> Based on all of the above, it seems to me that the only sane thing to do is sometimes identify other people's behaviour as crazy.

> I encourage you to read more carefully.

You should take your own advice.

Again most people in this thread have said: describing behaviours as crazy isn't the problem. Describing people as crazy is.

> but I don't see a problem with doing so

It makes you sound stupid. It makes you sound like that embarrassing racist grandparent.

It creates a culture where it's acceptable to shoot and kill people with mental illness (about half the people killed by US police each year have mental illness). It creates a culture where people with mental illness are discriminated against in the workplace. It makes it harder for people with mental illness to seek treatment.

Stigma kills people.

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#55
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's good advice. But it's not a sure thing because most people will make mistakes. Or maybe their friends will.

Your sets of online friends and meatspace friends must not overlap.

Sure they can overlap. They can't knowingly overlap.

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#56
post #15

There's a simple solution: Don't use real names online. That eliminates meatspace threats, if done properly. And then compartmentalize. For risky stuff, create new personas. In worst case, just burn them down.

Yeah, this is how we told to use the internet in the olden days. Don't give out personal information online, don't tell every random person your name or what you look like, realise that no one is who they seem on the internet.

Unfortunately, this means that:

Your credibility might take a hit, since people tend to be suspicious of anonymous or pseudononymous sources.

You might become less famous/popular in general.

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#57
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how public figures work. Influential public figures are influential largely because they are credible. Credibility requires history. Anonymity precludes history. Take Jeff for example. Jeff has a history. Jeff is a credible game developer with an impressive development history. He's a known factor in the creative community. He's got credibility out the wazoo. As such, we give his words extra weight because…

Anonymity precludes history. Pseudonymity doesn't.

A prominent example is the mastermind behind DotA, Icefrog. The public has no idea who he is despite the fact that he has been quite famous for several years.

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#58
post #2

This is a part of why I'm quite selective about what I post online. The major part is that I value my privacy and don't really want random people knowing everything about me. I don't want to be a public figure. I avoid Facebook and Twitter, too, so that really reduces my surface area for this type of attack.

Facebook is honestly not that bad on this because your "friends" circle makes it harder for a post to go completely viral. Twitter on the other hand is really dangerous because you can just make a tweet which pisses off some random celebrity and face a huge backlash, this is really scary.

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#59

I notice newly famous or semi famous people ignore all of Jeff Vogel's rules. They jump in and defend themselves in every argument. Happens often in the Magic community. Guy wins tournament, guy starts writing Magic articles, guy gets upset when criticized, and guy goes crazy.

It's sort of like what happens to people who win the lottery; they have less experience as millionaires, so they make a ton of big purchases and questionable spending decisions. People who were born/grew up/made it rich more slowly tend to have more experience managing their finances and hence tend to go broke a lot less quickly/often.

The same thing tends to happen to the newly famous. They think they're invincible, get a quickly overinflated ego, respond poorly to criticism and end up under a ton of psychological pressure as a result. You can see it with people who make it big off talent shows or reality tv.

Re: How I Deal with Harassment, Abuse, and Crazies in General

#60
post #54
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind the double-post, but I'll reply to both of them at once. I have mental health issues. Nearly everyone I care about has mental health issues. Some of those issues are moderately serious problems, some are minor annoyances. It sucks having problems. I'm sad you have problems. I'm sad I have problems. I hope your problems resolve themselves, and/or you learn better coping strategies, and that life is as nic…

> Based on all of the above, it seems to me that the only sane thing to do is sometimes identify other people's behaviour as crazy. > I encourage you to read more carefully. You should take your own advice. Again most people in this thread have said: describing behaviours as crazy isn't the problem. Describing people as crazy is. > but I don't see a problem with doing so It makes you sound stupid. It makes you sound…

Another problem is that it can make people so angry that it's difficult to articulate coherent replies, so thank you.
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