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In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

nytimes.com

251–260 of 380 posts

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#251
post #233

These articles always pit “newcomers” like Sonja Trauss (2012, originally from Philadelphia) against “long-time residents” like Jennifer Fieber (1990 from wherever). What about my generation: Kids born in San Francisco, who are growing up in a city where either we stay with our parents indefinitely, we move into tech, or we move out of the area. In terms of the economy, we are newcomers, but in terms of community, we…

YEP! +1 SF has 11,000 "newcomers" per year that come here by being born here. Some of my most active volunteers are in just the situation you're describing - frustrated by the stress on their families caused by the kids either having to stay at home or move far away.

The councilman from Mountain View who was instrumental in getting the 8000 new homes approved down there was anti-growth his whole life, until a couple years ago when both of his children, both in their 20s, were still living with him. It was a revelation for him. heh.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#252
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad zoning is really bad, but zoning is useful. What you need is mixed offices and housing with street level retail. Coffee shops, restaurants, places to go. You also want underground transportation because parking wastes space, cars interfere with pedestrians, and stoplights are a pathetic drag on movement. Self-driving electric cars could have high utilization for underground tunnels. Like a subway, with stations i…

I really like this idea of a subterranean highway that houses a self-driving fleet of electric cars. It seems like it would let commuters bring their own certified cars to use the system, while passengers who simply want a ride between dedicated stops could take an electric bus, perhaps.

I expect most people would prefer self driving uber rather than individual ownership. And I wonder if buses (analogous to subway cars) offer any advantages.

Think of the average utilization of a subway tunnel. Despite the high density of people in a subway car, the vast majority of the tunnel is empty.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#253

The problem is that the Bay Area has too much money. Period, end of story. You can't fix things by going unregulated. Douglas Rushkoff talks about how Internet companies these days are extractive, and Facebook is the prime example of this. (I'm not demonizing Facebook in any way, I respect the hell out of them.) The nature of how they make money is that they have users from around the world, and all their money essen…

The problem is the "rent seeking" the use of politics to artificially constrict supply to create market inefficiencies. This is a basic concept in Microeconomics.

As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, economists such as Paul Krugman, Edward Glaeser, Tim Harford, and many others who are "domain experts" make this statement.

I find it interesting how people listen to aircraft designers, nuclear power plant designers, civil engineers about buildings and bridges, but ignore economists who basically all agree about the market inefficiencies caused by zoning codes that artificially create scarcity and constrict housing supply thus driving up housing prices.

Remove the market inefficiency and the cost of housing will drop. This is independent of Google, Facebook, foreigners buying homes, etc.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#254
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. The point is that Paris is about three times as dense as SF and it still is widely considered a "beautiful" city.

Paris's characteristic "beautiful" architecture is six stories tall stone, SF's is three stories tall wood. Unfortunately SF was started on a major fault, and probably without nearby quarries (which would be insane to use in an earthquake zone anyways). So now we're stuck in a dichotomy between 4+ stories steel and glass, and the "original" SF Edwardian architecture, which doesn't scale as well as Paris's stone.

And Paris was started on a muddy riverbank. Also not ideal substrate for heavy stonework.

There are plenty of quarries nearby, that I’ve seen in Santa Clara and Santa Cruz. It would be a better idea to build using reinforced concrete, though.

But even wood is not so limited. Most parcels here are limited by zoning to 2 stories. We could easily build 4-story wooden buildings, and double the city’s density. Some of the oldest wooden buildings are 5-story buildings in earthquake country,[0] and allegedly there are plenty of 10-story wooden buildings that have survived earthquakes in Vancouver.[1]

I think some of the appetite for reinforced concrete is because housing is so difficult to build around here, that it’s only worth going through the effort if the prices are high enough to justify expensive materials. Also, steel and glass allow you to have big windows.

[0] http://gizmodo.com/5846501/how-japans-oldest-wooden-building...

[1] https://www.minnpost.com/earth-journal/2015/07/how-tall-can-...

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#255
post #2

I say this as a conservative: Building limits are systemically classist and racist. They maintain a geographical segregation system. If you want to fix the country then remove all limits, let developers develop whatever and whereever they deem there is demand. Remove occupancy laws where they're not about safety. Remove property line setbacks. End parking requirements. End requirements about private kitchens and bath…

Zoning in the US should be abolished. The government shouldn't be micromanaging what individuals do with their own property. People complain that others will buy up the land next door and set up a puppy smelting plant that belches bone ashes into the air, but that's a separate issue. It's not so much the puppy-smelting that's at issue, but the ashes. I think it makes sense to force manufacturing companies to keep their pollution at bay, but not to prohibit them from using the property for any lawful purpose. If you can't observe what people are doing in a building, then it's none of your business.

That said, Japan[1] has an approach to zoning that would be an improvement: They classify land into 12 different zones, 11 of which allow increasingly 'undesirable' buildings to be built. You can build a house in an industrial area or shopping mall if you want, but you can't build a factory in an area zoned for more desirable buildings. Zone 9 is for heavy manufacturing, so it doesn't allow residential or commercial buildings.

For something like blocking a shopping mall, you don't actually need the government to ban someone from building one in your neighborhood. Just find 1000 like-minded NIMBYs, set up a corporation with investment money from each NIMBY, get a loan from a bank to cover the rest, build or buy a new town, and simply vote as a shareholder against Walmart's proposal to buy out your land. My view is that you have no right to stop Walmart from doing what it wants on its land, and it has no right to do what it wants on your land.

[1] http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the comment section on that article is pretty sad. The number of people whose argument against building more housing is a fear that it will make the city "ugly" is astounding. It's mind-numbingly selfish and greedy to think that a family should barely be able to make ends meet, and children should spend less time with their long-commuting parents, just so that SF can meet your personal aesthetic sensibilities.…

Also, San Francisco is already ugly. It's not like you'd be razing historically important beaux arts buildings to build more.

In my experience, San Francisco is a beautiful city when viewed from a distance, but rather unfriendly and dirty up close.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#257

Hi guys, it's me, Sonja Trauss, AMA.

Hi Sonja. How can San Francisco locals like me can help encourage building? Are there ways to engage that you've found particularly effective? What can my friends who live in the Bay Area but outside of San Francisco do?

Vote in this spring's election, slate card here: www.sfyimby.org/slate/

SF has early voting, so people can vote at City Hall any day between May 9th and June 7th. We're trying to get all the specifically pro-housing people to vote on May 10th. We will be able to look up how many people voted specifically on May 10th. The goal is 2000 people, which is NOT A LOT. This is extremely achievable.

What will this do? If we get 2000 people (or honestly, 600 would be pretty impressive) to show up to vote on May 10th, it will cement the pro-building constituency as a real constituency in SF. It would be great for our candidates to win, but the real goal here is show of organized strength.

Politics is about perception. If we get 2000 voters, that will be incredibly impressive and it will generate another round of news coverage. The news coverage will embolden electeds to vote for pro-housing laws and recruit new volunteers. It will be news because the received wisdom is that the kind of people who are pro-building - new people, young people and tech workers - are impossible to organize.

So, literally, the most important thing you can do is vote with us May 10th in SF. If you can't come May 10th, vote for the slate another day, that's good too.

If you don't live in SF, don't let that stop you from voting :D. Get one friend who lives in SF to vote on your behalf. I guarantee your friend was not planning on voting in this election. Can you ask them to do a favor for you? If you live in the East Bay sign up for East Bay Forward: http://www.eastbayforward.org/forwardtogether/ If you live in the Peninsula, http://www.peninsulaforward.org/ They'll direct you to local political battles.

If you do live in SF, also try to convince one (or more) friend to vote with you this Spring. There is no way to get to 2000 besides adding 1+1+1+1+1 + ... +1.

I am counting on you guys to vote, and bring people to vote. I can't convince all 2000 people to vote all on my own :D The gold standard for getting people to vote is them having a one-on-one conversation about it with a friend. Despite the quote in the article (taken out of context) ranting at the bar IS effective.

After this election - watch the news - if we're successful the political landscape will be more in our favor. Politics isn't broken, you just have to know how to work it. If the idiots in the Tea Party were able to take over the Republican party and shut down the government, we can definitely get a few upzonings passed.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#258
I suspect that building more will not make a dent because everyone (at least everyone here in HN comments) assumes that more construction is the solution with _everything else_ staying the same. But it won't.

More housing will bring more people. SF is one of the most desirable places in the world to live, with striving economy, great climate, liberal culture and breathtaking scenery. Half of Americans want to live in SF, and probably billions world wide.

Building insane amount of additional housing units in SF, say 4,000,000, will result in Bay Area economy expanding even further, more companies will be created and the existing ones will probably grow faster. SF will completely eclipse NYC as the economic powerhouse and we'll have 5MM people living in skyscrapers with 1br apartments going for the same $4K/mo as they are now: see Hong Kong.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#259
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two things that continually surprise me about life in the modern, Internet-enabled age... two things that I would never have dreamed would happen, if you'd asked the 1996 version of me what American life would be like in 2016. One is our increasing indulgence in irrationality, to the extent that we almost celebrate it. I would never have guessed that hard-right social conservatism would still be a dominant…

Well, the 90s were probably the peak of suburban living, before people decided the hours of commuting per day and countless gallons of gasoline burned were not really worth it. So people moved to where the jobs are. (considering that most people still cannot fully work remotely). Also, as you point out, living in urban areas is a luxury good; as wealth increases (for a large enough segment of the population, at least…

Nobody has left suburban living. Young people have just delayed marriage due to financial instability and career preferences, and thus delayed childbirth. Older folks have sensibly sought to downsize when empty nesting.

The hyper dense mega city model is a failure for quality of life. Instead, a dense CBD with trains distributing the population to the suburbs, with medium then low density, with shopping zones on walkable strips built around the train stations, is the way to go. Add in good planning, with buses and cycle infrastructure for last mile. And lots of parks.

Melbourne, where the modern concept of suburban living as we know it originated, executes well on this. Perfect, no. But a good framework.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#260
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your analysis is that it undervalues the benefits of living and working in a major city, especially as a young person. I don't really want to remote -- I want to get out, interact with people, take a coffee break and people watch, grab drinks with coworkers. I want to meet people my age doing interesting things. I want to go out drinking/clubbing/whatever without worrying about driving home after. Ad…

And that's great, I wouldn't argue with any of the choices you've made for yourself. For you, the social benefits of urban life are apparently worth the costs, and that's fine. You and your friends probably aren't the ones who are doing most of the complaining. But if it's that important to someone that they live in that particular city, to the exclusion of all other possibilities available on the planet, then they s…

The real problem in the Bay is not SF, it's the lack of commuting infrastructure and quality. Lack of urban life around transportation hubs in the suburbs. The fact that CalTrain is a thing and BART doesn't go all the way around the Bay is a joke.
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