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In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

nytimes.com

201–210 of 380 posts

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#201
post #140

The Times selected as an "NYTimes Pick" a comment from someone in Berlin who absolutely makes my blood boil. (S)he starts off by stating privilege as a 5th-generation San Franciscan (obviously, the kind who DESERVE to live in the city), and who fled in the tech boom of the 90s. The usual rant about whitewashing and yuppies and artists being pushed out ensues. Of course they don't want more housing built, because then…

Yeah, the comment section on that article is pretty sad. The number of people whose argument against building more housing is a fear that it will make the city "ugly" is astounding. It's mind-numbingly selfish and greedy to think that a family should barely be able to make ends meet, and children should spend less time with their long-commuting parents, just so that SF can meet your personal aesthetic sensibilities.…

There are two things that continually surprise me about life in the modern, Internet-enabled age... two things that I would never have dreamed would happen, if you'd asked the 1996 version of me what American life would be like in 2016.

One is our increasing indulgence in irrationality, to the extent that we almost celebrate it. I would never have guessed that hard-right social conservatism would still be a dominant force in American politics, much less a booming business. So I got that wrong, and I'm willing to admit that happened because I didn't take the time to understand those who thought differently from myself, or how their social motivations, family backgrounds, and economic pressures are different from my own. So, my bad.

The other is the continuing notion that it's somehow desirable, much less necessary, to cram everyone into a few high-density cities on either coast. From a 1990s perspective, it appeared that the growing availability of fast Internet connections and the rise of online social, technical, and business networking resources was finally going to liberate us from crowded, noisy, polluted urban prisons with endless traffic jams, out-of-control taxes, and multi-kilobuck rents.

It should have become both possible and desirable to do anything from anywhere, from the middle of flyover territory to the north coast of Alaska to the freaking International Space Station. Instead, we just get more of the same complaints. Rent is too damn high, there's too much traffic, and man, San Francisco/Seattle/Austin/New York used to be cool until all these techies/hippies/yuppies/homeless people/Republicans showed up and ruined it.

I'm not willing to concede that my worldview is wrong about this. This time, it's everyone else who's being stupid and needs to get a clue.

Just leave.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's a major synchronization problem I think the "having to move for your next job" makes sense, but what is this major synchronization problem you are talking about? Could you expand upon this?

The major SV/SF tech companies and employees aren't all going to decide to move to Omaha on the same day. For a new city to become a tech hub, some people have to take the risk of living in a non-tech-hub city for a few years while it becomes one (and if it doesn't, well, sucks for them).

Sounds like you meant something closer to "equilibrating" instead of synchronizing, at least that makes more sense for me as a scientist.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#203
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berlin? Denser than San Francisco? Huh? I just moved from the former to the latter, and I'm pretty sure that that's not the case, and Wikipedia backs me up (~4,000/km2 vs 7,124/km2).

Thanks -- Cannot find my original source but perhaps it was a difference in how they measured land area.

Berlin used to have a lot more inhabitants, about 1 million more around around 1940 than now. Not all of the living areas from back then still exist, but it means there are some reserves. In addition to that, while there's obviously some pressure against just moving outward, it's in the middle of flat, mostly unused, land. Not comparable to SF's space constrained situation.

(Oh, and I do miss Berlin)

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a bad idea, too. For example, in Fremont right now, there's a development that was built without being placed in a school district. So the students who will live there have no real school. Perhaps abolishing the whole idea of school districts and assigning kids to schools via address as opposed to parental decision. The whole pay for schools via property tax and local levies has a pretty big negative impact…

A school district is a system of assigning kids to schools via address. In California, the schools are funded equally based on property tax collected at the state level. Schools are funded based on how many students are sitting in class, not on where they are located.

> A school district is a system of assigning kids to schools via address.

I think I'm aware of this, and it is often not what the parent's want used as a determinate. If someone says they have moved somewhere to get their kids in a "good" school district then the system has failed.

> In California, the schools are funded equally based on property tax collected at the state level. Schools are funded based on how many students are sitting in class, not on where they are located.

Except for districts where local property tax portion exceeds the funding formula levels since the property tax is kept local to the district. Also, CA schools are funded on more than property taxes such as having an income tax share.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#205
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply saying "let the market decide who is worthy of housing" is also classicist and racist. Unless you explicitly define the market has to cater to "X income brackets", "Y racial demographics", and "Z% needs to be for personal housing, not commercial or industrial usage", you're basically saying "whoever has the most money". How is this better and more inclusive to the poor and minorities?

Because it works better in practice. Consider other markets where supply is not artificially constrained. There are no laws specifying how many cars can be manufactured, or how they can be priced. Manufacturers are able to make cars at a wide range of price points. And the used car market let's people buy at incredibly low prices. Or consider soap. We "let the market decide who is worthy" of soap, and yet there is no…

Apples and oranges. The new car market dealership model actually obfuscates the price so much that prices can vary wildly by thousands of dollars for the same model and package options. It is a very consumer unfriendly process. You could even make a claim that regulation is partially to blame for this.

The used car market is full of scams, and has the used-car salesmen ever been seen as a trustworthy individual? The independent used-car inspector I went through had a disclaimer that they charge extra to inspect cars on lots out on 82nd ave in Portland because of how notoriously bad they are at selling people lemons. There are many salvage sellers on Craigslist, who fail to mention how badly the car was damaged before being repaired, and those repairs are usually poorly done. Some of the cheapest options are cars with recalls that the seller never mentions in their ad.

Soap? The raw materials, use cases and costs involved with soap are so out of align with that of housing, I can't see "it works for soap" being a viable argument. In many poor neighborhoods there are "food/grocery deserts", so access to cheap soap can be an issue.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#206
The problem is that the Bay Area has too much money. Period, end of story. You can't fix things by going unregulated.

Douglas Rushkoff talks about how Internet companies these days are extractive, and Facebook is the prime example of this. (I'm not demonizing Facebook in any way, I respect the hell out of them.) The nature of how they make money is that they have users from around the world, and all their money essentially flows from those countries of origin into Menlo Park. It's extractive, and there's more money flowing into Menlo Park than would have normally occurred without a global economy. The same goes with Google, LinkedIn, Microsoft, etc. There's an inordinate amount of money flowing into the Valley because of this globally extractive nature of the Internet and that's the problem.

So now, Facebook et al can afford to hire very good engineers. Friends of mine with 8-10 years of experience are making $180-200k with 15% bonus and $350,000 in RSUs over 4 years. That figure is unbelievable. Over 4 years they are making over $1,300,000 each. And they are good but run-of-the-mill engineers that passed the interview. I'm assuming all the engineers at places like Netflix, LinkedIn, Salesforce, Google, etc are all making equivalent amounts of money, or more.

How can anyone in a "normal" job compete against this? My kids' daycare teachers make $40-50,000/yr. Two Facebook engineers make more money than the entire daycare that my children go to. Of course there is going to be rampant inflation across the board when there is so much money circulating in this area. Things like Uber can thrive because it's cheap relative to time.

So, deregulation is not the answer because it will just be exploited by the rich. Do you really think that rampant building across the

The only answer is for companies like Facebook to distribute their workforce back around the US or around the world. Having Silicon Valley being the money capital of the world is causing this problem, just like it does for Wall Street. Facebook, Google, etc, need to move their workforce around, with real equal development centers in the MidWest, in the South, on the East Coast, in Europe, Africa, Asia. This will distribute the money and cause income inequality to abate here.

This is the only answer. You can't stop it with deregulation, or even regulation, because the money won't stop flowing.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#207
post #140

The Times selected as an "NYTimes Pick" a comment from someone in Berlin who absolutely makes my blood boil. (S)he starts off by stating privilege as a 5th-generation San Franciscan (obviously, the kind who DESERVE to live in the city), and who fled in the tech boom of the 90s. The usual rant about whitewashing and yuppies and artists being pushed out ensues. Of course they don't want more housing built, because then…

Yeah, the comment section on that article is pretty sad. The number of people whose argument against building more housing is a fear that it will make the city "ugly" is astounding. It's mind-numbingly selfish and greedy to think that a family should barely be able to make ends meet, and children should spend less time with their long-commuting parents, just so that SF can meet your personal aesthetic sensibilities.…

On the one hand, you have established residents pushing back against expansion, construction, and denser housing -- perhaps to preserve what they value in their community, or perhaps out of personal interest and to drive up their property values.

On the other, you have a massive influx of tech workers who have convinced themselves that they must live in this small, overpriced city for their basic livelihood, and that the city should rapidly rebuild itself to accommodate them.

There's entitlement on both sides.

Could San Francisco have higher population density to accommodate the recent surge in housing demand? Sure. It already has the second highest population density in the U.S., but it could be denser. But the truth is there's no way to guarantee affordable housing for everyone who decides they would like to live in a small, in-demand city on the tip of a tiny peninsula. There will always be people who can't afford it.

> But I'm not so entitled as to think that my occaisional aesthetic pleasure is more important than someone else's basic livelihood.

No, but you're entitled enough to think that a city should be rebuilt to accommodate your livelihood, rather than your livelihood determining where you can reasonably afford to live. You're entitled enough to think you must live in SF, and you shouldn't have to consider living somewhere more affordable. If you can barely make ends meet and can't see your kids because you're commute is so long, why subject yourself to that?

As much as I'd like San Francisco's housing prices to come down, I also think rebuilding should be done responsibly and not rushed to accommodate a relatively recent surge in demand.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#208

The problem is that the Bay Area has too much money. Period, end of story. You can't fix things by going unregulated. Douglas Rushkoff talks about how Internet companies these days are extractive, and Facebook is the prime example of this. (I'm not demonizing Facebook in any way, I respect the hell out of them.) The nature of how they make money is that they have users from around the world, and all their money essen…

So do you feel like Saudia Arabia is extracting money from the West? And while we worry about being dependent on foreign energy sources, should they be worried about foreign money sources?

Google and Facebook succeed in part because they attract the best engineers. Those people aren't going to move to the midwest or wherever just because it's "better" for the economy.

It's called trade.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#209
post #200
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You're reading that incorrectly. That article says that 64k people were born or moved here, and that 63k moved out or died, for a net population gain of 1k. (EDIT: I misattributed this. That's Aaron Peskin's reading of the ACS numbers, which appear to be low. The actual ACS numbers suggest that the net gain has been around 12k per year since 2010. Still nowhere near a 64k net gain per year.) SF has grown by about…

> That article says that 64k people were born or moved here, and that 63k moved out or died, for a net population gain of 1k. No, it really doesn't. Could you quote the part of the article that leads you to that conclusion? Here's the quote from the article that leads me to a different conclusion (that population growth was ten times higher): "In order to make room for the 52,000 people who come here each year that a…

I was wrong about the 1k net -- that's the article's quote from Aaron Peskin, which I read as their summary. But your original comment ("64,000 in 2014") is still way off:

“This official census data [the American Community Survey] shows a one-year in-migration of 63,991 people, with an out-migration of 62,757 residents — a net population increase of 1,234.”

That's the article's quote from Peskin. The article contends he's wrong, and that the net migration, per year since 2010, is ~10k.

The actual census website [1] says that SF had a population of 805k in 2010, and estimates that it will be 865k by 2015. So ~12k per year, net. Peskin's numbers look low, but your original claim ("64,000 in 2014") is wrong by a factor of >500%.

"Certainly not insurmountable problems; Manhattan went from 942,292 people in 1870 to 1,164,673 in 1880."

If you think that Manhattan was a magical wonderland between 1870 and 1880, I suggest you pick up a history book. It was a brutal time for poor people in that city. [2]

[1] http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045214/06075 [2] http://www.livingcityarchive.org/htm/decades/1870.htm

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the comment section on that article is pretty sad. The number of people whose argument against building more housing is a fear that it will make the city "ugly" is astounding. It's mind-numbingly selfish and greedy to think that a family should barely be able to make ends meet, and children should spend less time with their long-commuting parents, just so that SF can meet your personal aesthetic sensibilities.…

There are two things that continually surprise me about life in the modern, Internet-enabled age... two things that I would never have dreamed would happen, if you'd asked the 1996 version of me what American life would be like in 2016. One is our increasing indulgence in irrationality, to the extent that we almost celebrate it. I would never have guessed that hard-right social conservatism would still be a dominant…

You're not wrong. Any developer for example that can find remote work can benefit from the plummeting real estate costs to be found in any of the areas that have seen an outflow of people in search of work in urban areas.

There are countless communities across the US that are aging, as the youth have moved to the metropolis to work. Anyone that can extract money from the internet can benefit from this trend.

Couple that with low interest rates, good credit and a duplex and you can live without paying a cent for housing. This works well in towns with some sort of natural beauty, but few jobs. Grab those tourist dollars via airbnb rentals and take it easy.

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