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The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

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Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#31
Interesting idea, but just reads like a lot of hand wringing to me. And comparing centralization of the web to colonial rule is ridiculous and honestly pretty insensitive.

I like that it acknowledges that running a personal web server is out of reach (technologically and financially) for most people. But I'm not sure if its proposed decentralized network is any better, because creating web content and having a large number of people see it are not easy.

At the end of the day, most people using the web do not have a technical background and really just want to microblog to their friends using a simple interface. Facebook/Twitter/Instagram and hell, even Snapchat do that. I'm having trouble imagining a decentralized network that replicates that.

Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#32
post #2

I don't get this article. Other than defining a bunch of new words, what are they exactly saying the problem is, and what are they saying the solution is? Just saying that is complete nonsense. And the problem seems to be but they never really say what.

The problem: > The internet has been stolen from you. Scooped out of your hands without much of a fuss. A small number of corporations are locked in a zero-sum game of land grabs. The solution: > The solution is to decentralize further, relying on a peer-to-peer model...In short, create an app, one that you run on your computer or phone, that writes social data (aka “posts”) into local databases and then replicates t…

> The internet has been stolen from you.

This isn't a felt need. I don't feel inconvenienced by this. I don't feel the loss of something I once owned or had the benefit of.

> The solution is to decentralize further,

The solution solves a very abstract problem. I would go so far as to say it's a religious or spiritual need only that is solved by this. Decentralization will not improve my life or meet any felt need (I am not less hungry, less lonely, more clothed, more sheltered, or more socially connected as a result of this product). The only benefit I could have is if I had a religious belief in the moral need for this type of system, and that system satisfied that moral belief. I think that's a very small minority of users.

Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#33
This project doesn't serve a felt user need. If you've ever worked in a startup attempting to do a consumer product you know exactly what I mean. It's extremely hard to get a user to even use a product that solves a problem for them, and much harder if they already have a product that they think solves the problem. If they don't feel the pain of the problem being solved, it's impossible. I don't think many users have a felt need for this product, whether or not the developers believe it solves an abstract moral or spiritual need.

Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how would I discover content if I didn't use HN? Is there a way to aggregate and rank content without an authoritative server? Also, HN isn't for-profit (although YC is). Like, yeah, it's not a non-profit, but it's not designed to make any money either.

Usenet / NNTP

That's federated, which is a different kind of decentralized than the one implied in the article. Federated systems are less centralized, but still require regular clients to trust the system they are federated with.

Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#35
Virtually everything the author wants exists in a technical sense, but it's not usable for the average person.

I've said this many times, pretty much whenever this topic comes up:

A thing that works is maybe 10-20% of the way to being done. The rest of the work is making it into a product non-experts can use.

UX is tedious, time consuming, and painful. It involves a lot of the kind of work most devs hate. As a result people generally have to be paid to do it.

Almost nobody does UX work for decentralized open systems because they are free. There is no economic model. You can't make a living.

Until this changes nobody is ever going to use this stuff.

IMHO this is The Problem and if you are working on decentralization without trying to solve it you are spinning your wheels.

Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#36

Posted on Medium, a central, private, for-profit publishing platform. Oh the irony.

Regardless of my opinion about the article itself, your message reminded me of this great quote from Tom Morello of Rage Against The Machine:

"When you live in a capitalistic society, the currency of the dissemination of information goes through capitalistic channels. Would Noam Chomsky object to his works being sold at Barnes & Noble? No, because that's where people buy their books. We're not interested in preaching to just the converted. It's great to play abandoned squats run by anarchists, but it's also great to be able to reach people with a revolutionary message, people from Granada Hills to Stuttgart."

Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how would I discover content if I didn't use HN? Is there a way to aggregate and rank content without an authoritative server? Also, HN isn't for-profit (although YC is). Like, yeah, it's not a non-profit, but it's not designed to make any money either.

> Is there a way to aggregate and rank content without an authoritative server? Something like RSS: Pick up all posts tagged such and such from these users. I've thought a bit about this and if we really wanted to we could get really far with just a few hundred lines of code as well as some html templates. Problem is, most people like facebook and instagram :-/

Then 'most people' aren't your target audience. That doesn't mean there isn't a well sized target audience.

Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#38
post #24

For the immediate future at least, federation seems much more feasible than wholly decentralized systems. At least for websites / applications that are expected to gain any mainstream traction. Building a federated Wikipedia, Reddit, Twitter, Amazon, App Store, etc. that does not have a single point of censorship / failure is perfectly doable. Hell, any of those websites could start federation initiatives today if th…

While it's clear that p2p is going to face an uphill battle to demonstrate its value to the average Joe, I would also argue that federation doesn't address the underlying issues with user control of data.

Email is federated. Does it give us any more control over our data? No, because one company controls the largest email service and monitors not just that user's emails but also the ones I send to them.

XMPP is federated. One company managed to get a large enough market share, at the first opportunity they lock other federation servers out and change the protocol.

Federation for established websites is long a thing, CDNs are taking care of that for them. Central points of contact combined with P2P distribution like WebTorrent is the worst of both worlds: The centralized site still owns all your data, and in addition you're paying with your bandwidth and CPU resources to reduce their bill.

A fully client-centric model isn't anywhere near likely to make it big in the near future. However, client-first (with personal servers provided by friends & non-profits) is the only feasible approach for reclaiming ownership of our data.

For-profit companies don't have any incentives to let you store large amounts of encrypted data on their servers for free, at best they'll use it for cross-selling. At worst they'll push for a modified protocol version that relies on the central company server for crucial functionality, scheming the next lock-in.

If the past is any indication, the future looks bleak for idealists who (merely?) want a user-controlled alternative to those data-driven monopolist platform ecosystems.

The technology might be getting there, but the average user's priorities make it a super hard sell. In the face of the Google/Apple duopoly, open standards are more and more an optional gimmick - instead of standard data transfer protocols we get CarPlay and Dropbox, instead of wireless standards we get Chromecast and Apple Multipeer, instead of mini-computer smartphones we get constrained consumption devices with tracking built in as a core feature.

The value of client-first P2P is really not about censorship or failure. It's about control. By giving control over protocols and platforms to a handful of large service providers, we got more convenience in exchange for our opportunities to tinker and improve on the status quo. Instead of being able to change things as a society, now we have to rely on shareholder-controlled entities to decide what's good for us. It used to be just code and Windows vs. Linux, now it's data and Google vs. basic assumptions of privacy.

And the user doesn't even know the difference.

Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#39
I like the post, and the ambitious GitHub repo with a single README made me smile. We're re-discussing an existing idea to see if maybe something sticks or clicks. An idea might be the same, but circumstances change.

That said, I agree with a lot of the comments here. Like coding, let's see if we already have a library that does what we want before writing it (again). A good question is, what's the most pressing problem we face, and how does this solve it?

I don't have a problem using Twitter or Facebook to, let's say, organize a grassroots movement or lead a protest, but I ought to be concerned about the viability of these platforms for such activities when they're unpopular with the company or government behind it. How might we solve this? Maybe this project leads to some solution...?

Re: The internet has been stolen from you. Take it back, nonviolently

#40
This project - Swadeshi - it's an idealistic and foolish idea. Which is why I'm interested in seeing where it goes. I generally make pessimistic assumptions, and I'm assuming this project will go no where. But we still need audacious ideas. Even if the concept itself doesn't succeed, the project may create and disseminate related ideas and technologies that could be transformative - a successful failure.

What follows are a few blockers, or possible failure modes for Swadeshi. The biggest potential issues are not with the technology, but with the ecosystem it has to live in.

Network Size - Facebook, Twitter, et al. have the great advantage of having huge numbers of users. To use an alternative requires not only that I adopt the alternative, but that that I convince some significant part of my friends/family/society to use the same.

It's like Bitcoin - Bitcoin is not that difficult to use, and has a number of features missing from traditional currencies. But the great potential utility of Bitcoin comes from having nearly everyone use it. Currencies, like social networks, require large numbers of users to be widely useful.

One important exception is for users who can't or won't participate in "normal" currencies or networks. Which is why Bitcoin became the de-facto currency the Silk Road and other black markets. And why, initially, Swadeshi will most likely be used by those groups who can't openly participate the normal social networks - child pornographers, white nationalists, islamic fundamentalists, freedom fighters, revolutionary groups, etc.

The danger here is that "stink" or "danger" of these out-groups will be associated with the project in popular consciousness. The network may be de-centralized, but people still think hierarchically. Swadeshi could easily become "the kid-toucher's social network" much like "Bitcoin is the Sewer Rat of Currencies"

Capture - Swadeshi is de-centralized, so there's no single entity controlling the state of the network. But that doesn't rule out capture. Look again at Bitcoin. The idea was to create a virtual currency (which it did). But it was quickly captured by speculators to the point of crippling the network. Control and capture are two different things, and solving for one doesn't preclude the other.

Facebook can still win - Suppose the Swadeshi project gains millions of active users. That's real momentum for a Facebook replacement. But Facebook can still win by embracing and extending the technology behind Swadeshi. Facebook could be all-Swadeshi under the hood, but present the familiar FB interface, with their value-adds of Photos, Groups, Pages, etc. Moderation could be FB's major advantage. If Swadeshi is the wild-west of social networks, FB could bolt on their anti-spam and abuse reporting mechanisms to tame the unruly bits.

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