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At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

tampabay.com

41–50 of 109 posts

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#41
post #19

I've never understood what "farm-to-table" means. Doesn't all food come from a farm? Is it supposed to mean "farm owned by a stereotypical farmer, not by a corporation?" If so, that's pretty vague and subjective.

If done accurately it means that the food is produced using the most unsustainable and inefficient ways possible so that only the most privileged can partake. Other than that its just marketing that is targeting people that either want to think of themselves as upper class or have been falsely led to believe that this type of food production is actually eco-friendly and more healthy. (Also see "Organic" food)

I think it is a noble cause. You are correct in that it means the price of some of the food groups increases dramatically, so many people are left out of regularly consuming it. I believe that 50/60 years ago, people did not expect to eat meat/fish every night due to the price.

I would like to know why you think farm-to-table is inherently unsustainable? Many farmers in the Highlands of Scotland make a good living selling superior beef to restaurants and butchers in the UK. They do this without regular factory farming methods. Is it less efficient compared to clearing thousands of acres in order to grow a single product which is fed government subsidised corn? Pound for pound, absolutely. Which is why some people decide to eat meat less regularly, but eat the best when they do.

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like 30% of fish sold isn't the fish on the label. Being illegal and being able to do something about it? No always the same. Sure if your swap killed a bunch of people, you would get caught. Who is going to instantly die form eating a GMO though?

Isn't the some kind of Government Agency that buys random stuff from supermarkets/suppliers, tests the food and inspects the label? The same for restaurant inspections? Its not that expensive and it sends a clear message to these people.

From the article:

For 40,000-some Florida restaurants, 191 inspectors from the state’s Department of Business and Professional Regulation oversee them all for safety, sanitation and — occasionally — lies. By comparison, Georgia, with about half the population, has 300 inspectors. Ohio has 637 for about 22,000 restaurants.

In the past two years, Florida inspectors found roughly 750 food misrepresentation violations. Of them, 123 restaurants were fined, with an average fine for first-time offenders between $150 and $300.

The state could beef up the number of inspectors and the fines. Should they? I'm not sure. Certainly I don't support lying to consumers, but it isn't exactly the crime of the century. I'd be much more concerned about safety and sanitation, though some mislabeling has safety implications (e.g. whether nuts are used).

There's a concept in false advertising law called "puffery" under which obviously exaggerated representations are not considered false advertising. Think "best chicken in the world". This isn't exactly that, but you really should know that your $11 Caesar salad with shrimp isn't using local, sustainable caught shrimp that goes for around ~$1/shrimp wholesale.

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#43
post #9

> “It’s really hard to find non-GMO produce,” Moran said. Aside from the IP problems of patent-infringement-via-unintended-germination, I don't understand what's not to like about GMO. GMO seems like a great idea -- modern human medicine seems to include techniques that are similar to or just-short-of "GMO." Are there any HNers who can articulate what they don't like about GMO?

I'm not an expert, but one criticism I've seen is that a lot of genetic modification is used to either get plants to produce pesticides or be immune to commonly used weed-killers, like Roundup. Some critics worry that lets farmers basically saturate their fields in herbicides to eliminate weeds, and that some of them are toxic to humans, other animals and plants near to the farm. Another issue is that most genetic mo…

In this case, the problem is that there's a huge difference between public perception and reality. For instance, you talk about herbicides: A modern GMO actually lets you use LESS herbicides and insecticides, and often far less dangerous ones than many that are OK for labeled organic crops, and happen to be far more toxic.

As far as updates on the field producing toxins, GMOs are actually more controlled, genetically speaking, than something that doesn't come from big agribusiness. I can irradiate my seeds to create mutations to use then on traditional breeding, and call myself organic afterwards!

As far as growing well in an area or not, that's why there is testing. Selling a seed that yields poorly to a region would lead to a major economic damage to whichever company is selling those seeds, so everything we can find at a seed store from a major manufacturer, whether GMO or not, will have more than enough agronomic information to make a farmer's decision easy. And besides, I don't know how many farmers you've talked to, but they tend to be a pretty conservative bunch, as far as making sure that they don't bet a lot of hectares on tech that they haven't tested first in a smaller part of their fields, and only plant everywhere if they expect a significant profit. When yields are already very good, and grain is cheap, expensive seeds just sell less across the board.

You don't get much opposition to GMOs among farmers: they just go with what is more profitable for them. Same thing for industrial companies that use the GMOs products to feed cattle or make biodiesel. It all comes down to people that are afraid of what they don't understand, and just choose to be afraid in ways that work well with their political affiliations.

If we were REALLY afraid of food being dangerous, and with untested genetics, we'd actually ban the organics, because there's a lot more genetic variation that is unaccounted for in traditional farming products than in something that comes from agribusiness.

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#44
post #9

> “It’s really hard to find non-GMO produce,” Moran said. Aside from the IP problems of patent-infringement-via-unintended-germination, I don't understand what's not to like about GMO. GMO seems like a great idea -- modern human medicine seems to include techniques that are similar to or just-short-of "GMO." Are there any HNers who can articulate what they don't like about GMO?

It does sound like a "throw the baby out with the bath water" scenario. In theory, GMOs could be more healthy than not GMO. In practice, this has not happened. The objectives instead have been to increase crop yield. The side effects have been to make the plants more toxic in very subtle ways that are hard to track and take decades for people to show symptoms. Maybe in a few more decades we'll see "good" GMOs. It sho…

Do you have something I could read for that claim regarding toxicity? I'm not super up on the debate surrounding GMOs, but I have a few friends who have scientific backgrounds and are interested, and I've never heard anything quite like what you're saying.

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#45
post #9

> “It’s really hard to find non-GMO produce,” Moran said. Aside from the IP problems of patent-infringement-via-unintended-germination, I don't understand what's not to like about GMO. GMO seems like a great idea -- modern human medicine seems to include techniques that are similar to or just-short-of "GMO." Are there any HNers who can articulate what they don't like about GMO?

There are two reasons I've seen for objecting to GMO, one unreasonable and one reasonable.

The unreasonable objection, which is probably the most common, is based on the belief that there is something inherently dangerous about GMO.

The reasonable objection is based on the belief that there is nothing wrong with GMO itself since it is just another tool and so whether it is good or bad in a particular instance depends on the user rather than the tool, but many (most?) of the current users do not have the inclination and/or wisdom to only use it for good.

Many of the interests of food producers (I'm including everyone in the chain before the food actually reaches the eater) are not aligned with the interests of food eaters. For instance a producer of a vegetable might prioritize uniformity of size and shape and predictable growing rates over taste and nutrition, because the former directly affect how effectively he can automate production. As an eater, I care a lot more about nutrition and taste than I care about having all of my vegetables be the same size and shape.

We've seen what happens when food manufacturer interests get too far out of alignment with what is healthy and nutritious--just look at all the health issues we have in the US that are reasonably attributable to our poor national eating habits.

> GMO seems like a great idea -- modern human medicine seems to include techniques that are similar to or just-short-of "GMO."

Medicine is highly regulated. You can't just make a new medicine and start selling it. Not so with food.

For a worst case scenario from an eater point of view, suppose you've got organism X and organism Y. These are very different, and cannot be crossbred. Suppose that Y produces something that has health benefits, but that some people are allergic to. X does not produce this substance.

A person allergic to that substance has a simple strategy for staying safe: do not eat Y.

With GMO, in theory some X manufacturer could modify X to include the genes from Y that produce that substance. For most people this would be a benefit--they are now getting that healthy substance from Y when they consume X.

For our person allergic to that substance, this sucks.

Now our allergic eater has to worry about both X and Y. And since GMO foods do not have to be labeled currently, he cannot simply avoid GMO X. He now has to avoid all foods with X. (And if our allergic eater is particularly unlucky, the maker of GMO X does not announce they are doing this, and so the allergic eater first finds out about it the hard way).

Manufacturers like to tout health benefits. For our poor allergic eater, those genes from Y for that substance he is allergic to might end up being put in all kinds of foods.

My opinion is that we should go ahead with GMO, but not blindly. As a first step, it needs to be labeled, and longer term we need to develop some regulations to make sure it is used safely and wisely.

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#46
post #17
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my area, I see some chefs at the weekly farmer's market buying meat, fish, and produce directly from local farmers. To me, that is 'farm to table'. Anything else is questionable, but could be. I believe buying from wholesale distributors would be the opposite of farm to table.

Part 2 of the article suggests that buying at the farmers' market is no guarantee: http://www.tampabay.com/projects/2016/food/farm-to-fable/far...

I don't buy pretty produce at the farmers market because I've suspected that a lot of it is just distributors for a long time. The out of season produce that looks picture perfect that isn't quite ripe, just screams large scale commercial grower.

Its the stalls with the ugly produce that I look at, as my own gardening experience, and that of an actual farmer attests. The best produce is the stuff the bugs want to eat. Cut the ugly part off, and what remains is the good stuff.

I also don't buy stuff that doesn't smell like actual food. Its pretty amazing how we have grown accustomed to produce that doesn't smell.

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#47
post #9

> “It’s really hard to find non-GMO produce,” Moran said. Aside from the IP problems of patent-infringement-via-unintended-germination, I don't understand what's not to like about GMO. GMO seems like a great idea -- modern human medicine seems to include techniques that are similar to or just-short-of "GMO." Are there any HNers who can articulate what they don't like about GMO?

It does sound like a "throw the baby out with the bath water" scenario. In theory, GMOs could be more healthy than not GMO. In practice, this has not happened. The objectives instead have been to increase crop yield. The side effects have been to make the plants more toxic in very subtle ways that are hard to track and take decades for people to show symptoms. Maybe in a few more decades we'll see "good" GMOs. It sho…

I think golden rice has been around for at least 20 yrs now.[0] Also serious question, What evidence do we have for "toxic in very subtle ways"? I wasn't aware that this actually exists.

[0] http://www.goldenrice.org/

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#48
post #19

I've never understood what "farm-to-table" means. Doesn't all food come from a farm? Is it supposed to mean "farm owned by a stereotypical farmer, not by a corporation?" If so, that's pretty vague and subjective.

If done accurately it means that the food is produced using the most unsustainable and inefficient ways possible so that only the most privileged can partake. Other than that its just marketing that is targeting people that either want to think of themselves as upper class or have been falsely led to believe that this type of food production is actually eco-friendly and more healthy. (Also see "Organic" food)

Inefficient? Yes. Unsustainable? No way. We've been farming the old-fashioned way for thousands of years with exponential increases in population. If that's not the definition of sustainability I don't know what is.

Also, modern cultivation techniques can strip the produce and soil of essential vitamins and nutrients. So yes, in some cases, the "inefficient" and "unsustainable" farms yield more nutritious and eco-friendly foods.

The notion that these facts are purely a fabrication of marketing companies is total bullshit. There's tons of research out there supporting this (nb4 WHO SPONSORED THE RESEARCH??), you just have to look for it.

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#49
post #35

A great bit of journalism here, hopefully it reaches a lot of eyes. I think that the fines levied on restaurants that are knowingly deceiving their customers should be much higher. The articles states $300 is the fine for first-time offenders, this is hardly much of a deterrence considering the premiums placed on 'locally sourced' dishes. If you want to get a good feel of how much proper locally grown food is, pop in…

yes, it is worth it, and ... the cost of a high quality steak reflects how often you should probably be eating steak. i.e. not very often.

I don't agree that the cost of food reflects how often we should eat it.

See: seafood, rare spices, berries, nuts.

Re: At Tampa Bay farm-to-table restaurants, you’re being fed fiction

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does sound like a "throw the baby out with the bath water" scenario. In theory, GMOs could be more healthy than not GMO. In practice, this has not happened. The objectives instead have been to increase crop yield. The side effects have been to make the plants more toxic in very subtle ways that are hard to track and take decades for people to show symptoms. Maybe in a few more decades we'll see "good" GMOs. It sho…

Do you have something I could read for that claim regarding toxicity? I'm not super up on the debate surrounding GMOs, but I have a few friends who have scientific backgrounds and are interested, and I've never heard anything quite like what you're saying.

(it doesn't exist, or appeals to the "fact" that toxicity is so minor that we can't see it yet)
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