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The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

theguardian.com

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Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#161

Post by true_religion »

ido wrote: post #159
dkopi wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A small apartment in good repair in a not-terrible part of Tel Aviv can easily cost ~6000 ils per month, before utilities." We probably have different definitions of "not terrible part of tel aviv". 1BRs (What israeli's call 2 rooms) go for 4000 shekels in Florentine. Walking distance from the startup scene of Rothschild, and 20 minutes by bus to the google and checkpoint area.

Which is fine for a single guy. But would you want to raise kids in a 1BR in Florentine (polluted, noisy, somewhat rough population in adjacent neighborhoods)?

It's about 1000 USD, so that means a two bedroom is 2000 USD.

Lot's of people near NYC/DC raise kids in 2 bedroom apartments or townhouses for around the 2000-3000USD price range.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#162

Post by cafard »

matwood wrote: post #142
cafard wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mind telling a long-ago Coloradan the neighborhoods? Forty years ago I used to go to Muddy Waters of the Platte, which was 15th St. across the Platte & train yards from downtown. Apart from that, I remember one around Larimer & Speer, but not much else.

None of them were downtown. One was in Parker and the other 2 were in Aurora. Aurora is so big that there are very nice parts and very not so nice parts. 40 years ago, I'm guessing both of the places were still just plains. Now they are Denver suburbs. I liked being a 1/2 hour from the city and also so close to the wilderness. Probably one of the favorite places ever to live. If Denver had an ocean it would be my ver…

Forty years ago, Parker was a fairly small town, and you were clearly out in the country for a while before you got there. Aurora was a well-populated suburb then, but as I recall it ended around Tamarack (?); anyway, there wasn't much if any of Aurora east of a line running N-S from the east end of Stapleton Airport.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#163

Post by jff »

forgetsusername wrote: post #122
nefitty wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help interpreting your opinion as, "it's ok to kick the poor people out, as long as the upper classes, government and businesses prosper." People aren't numbers to throw into a mean function. That "net positive" argument is what has been used to excuse globalization's "there have to be some losers" philosophy, which disproportionately affects those already in poverty. A sense of community is one of the few th…

> I can't help interpreting your opinion as, "it's ok to kick the poor people out, as long as the upper classes, government and businesses prosper. I can't help interpreting the original argument as "we're fine with our people here (the artists), but we don't want those other people in our community".

See: almost anyone in San Francisco complaining about "tech bros"

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#164

Post by goldbrick »

cylinder wrote: post #138
Shengbo wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how long it took for the US to adopt them. I wonder why the coffee shop culture wasn't exported earlier. I wouldn't compare Starbucks to European style cafés though. It's sort of like the McDonald's of coffee shops. Not a good experience if you're looking for quality coffee and a pleasant atmosphere.

Yeah Sbux is terrible, there is still a dearth of good cafes across the US. Only now is NYC picking some up via Australian imports.

You're joking right?

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#165

Post by ido »

true_religion wrote: post #161
ido wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is fine for a single guy. But would you want to raise kids in a 1BR in Florentine (polluted, noisy, somewhat rough population in adjacent neighborhoods)?

It's about 1000 USD, so that means a two bedroom is 2000 USD. Lot's of people near NYC/DC raise kids in 2 bedroom apartments or townhouses for around the 2000-3000USD price range.

What are average wages like in NYC/DC? More than ~$30k gross, like in Israel? What is the transit like in NYC with regards to the ability of the middle and lower classes to live outside of Manhattan?

Remember that OP suggested Tel Aviv's bad transit is not an issue cause you can walk anywhere if you live in the city (mostly if you live somewhat near the center/downtown, but nm that for now).

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#166

Post by Zelmor »

foldr wrote: post #154
Zelmor wrote: post #105

I love myself some fine light roasted filter coffee as much as the next person. My biggest concern with these places, however is IT security. Anyone who hasn't played around with their laptops once receiving the wifi password, running their chosen network analysis tools/penetration suite and messing with people whose screen you might even see from two tables away, hands up in the air. I will not be first in line, min…

>Anyone who hasn't played around with their laptops once receiving the wifi password, running their chosen network analysis tools/penetration suite and messing with people whose screen you might even see from two tables away, hands up in the air. That's not ethical, and depending on exactly what you're doing, possibly not legal either. There's very clearly an implicit assumption that coffee shop wifi is for your own…

As much as I agree with you, it is really naive to expect everyone to behave ethically. We wouldn't need security if the world was as such.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#167

Post by foldr »

Zelmor wrote: post #166
foldr wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anyone who hasn't played around with their laptops once receiving the wifi password, running their chosen network analysis tools/penetration suite and messing with people whose screen you might even see from two tables away, hands up in the air. That's not ethical, and depending on exactly what you're doing, possibly not legal either. There's very clearly an implicit assumption that coffee shop wifi is for your own…

As much as I agree with you, it is really naive to expect everyone to behave ethically. We wouldn't need security if the world was as such.

I wasn't suggesting that everyone would behave ethically, just pointing out that it's not ok to poke around on a cafe's network like that.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#168

Post by true_religion »

ido wrote: post #165
true_religion wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about 1000 USD, so that means a two bedroom is 2000 USD. Lot's of people near NYC/DC raise kids in 2 bedroom apartments or townhouses for around the 2000-3000USD price range.

What are average wages like in NYC/DC? More than ~$30k gross, like in Israel? What is the transit like in NYC with regards to the ability of the middle and lower classes to live outside of Manhattan? Remember that OP suggested Tel Aviv's bad transit is not an issue cause you can walk anywhere if you live in the city (mostly if you live somewhat near the center/downtown, but nm that for now).

I'll speak of DC since I know it best.

Pre-tax average is in the 80k to 90k USD range for DC, though obviously double that if you're thinking about a couple. DC transit is fairly good in-city, going to the suburbs its branches rather than a grid system so the train lines will essentially take you from home to work and that's it.

Walkability depends on where you live. In the suburbs of DC (virginia/maryland), there's quite a few walkable neighborhoods but they're small and separated from the next walkable neighborhood by about 3-5 miles.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#169

Post by ido »

ido wrote: post #165
true_religion wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about 1000 USD, so that means a two bedroom is 2000 USD. Lot's of people near NYC/DC raise kids in 2 bedroom apartments or townhouses for around the 2000-3000USD price range.

What are average wages like in NYC/DC? More than ~$30k gross, like in Israel? What is the transit like in NYC with regards to the ability of the middle and lower classes to live outside of Manhattan? Remember that OP suggested Tel Aviv's bad transit is not an issue cause you can walk anywhere if you live in the city (mostly if you live somewhat near the center/downtown, but nm that for now).

It was sort of a rhetorical question :)

My point was that if you are raising a family in metropolitan Tel Aviv you are either wealthy or, more likely, live in the suburbs.

In which case transit & traffic matter a lot.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#170

Post by alanwatts »

forgetsusername wrote: post #123
alanwatts wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define the problem first, then we can talk about a solution. The problem (as I see it) is artificial scarcity of housing which creates artificially inflated and unaffordable housing costs. Depending on what sources you look at, there are around 4-6 empty houses in the US for every homeless person. The solution to that would be to cease the state-sponsoring of fraudulent and dishonest sub-prime mortgage shell games li…

> let simply the market normalize. Who's to say what that "normal" market looks like, and what it means for housing affordability?

Very good question, considering how abstract of a term "the market" is.

I suppose in a "normal market" if a surplus of supply exists affordability should increase as prices should decrease. That's Economics 101.

But in a market controlled by a monopoly/oligarchy, the price system is dictated by the recidivist whims of the super admins, rather than by the needs and desires of the user base or the physical reality of the resource(s) in question.

So in the current state of housing surplus, affordability has decreased as prices have increased.

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