The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change • Hacker News Board

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#151

Post by ben_jones » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 4:22 PM UTC

dkopi wrote: post #148

ben_jones wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is Tel Aviv coffee shops are ideal for tech workers? Got to remember most of the world could care less about the logo designer, the architect, the programmer, etc. It worries me that tech is becoming a social club where you're either in it it completely or out of it. What's it like to be a low-wage blue collar worker in SF outside of the tech industry? This post would make it seems like they hav…

Actually, no. Tel Aviv Coffee shops are ideal for tech workers. And being in tech and commenting on hacker news, I obviously state that first of all. But Tel Aviv coffee shops are packed with people of all types and shapes. Whether it's a social worker unwinding after a long week at work, a photographer who can't afford an office, so he meets the engaged couple to discuss terms at a coffee shop, or the Tel Aviv Unive…

Yeah I apologize I used your comment to address some slightly unrelated misgivings I have. The modern coffee shop just happened to remind me of it.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#152

Post by geebee » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 4:25 PM UTC

shanusmagnus wrote: post #147

geebee wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with laptop cafes, I bring mine to cafes to work all the time. I really enjoy it. But I also see merit in cafes that establish a no cell, no laptop rule (sometimes just for certain hours of the day). That would be a draw for me (honestly, the no cell phone policy tends to be more of a draw than a no laptop policy). To me, this is very much a one size doesn't fit all situation. It makes no sense to g…

I've dreamed many times about starting a cafe with a no-cell no-laptop policy, but just assumed I was a cranky bastard and the idea was insane. Your post suggests that maybe it's a thing, though - would you mind saying where you've found such cafes?

Wish I could, this is just something I read or hear about on the news, radio, and so forth every now and then, usually because someone got angry when they couldn't use their cell and was asked to leave and got angry about it and it becomes a "local interest kind of news story.

Bourbon and branch in SF bans cell phones, but that's a bar, not a cafe. I read about another one (a cafe) that bans cell phones and laptops for a certain section of the day, but I'd have to google around for it.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#153

Post by cardine » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 4:32 PM UTC

dkopi wrote: post #59

Commenting on this post while I'm at a coffee shop myself. If I had to pick one city for having the best coffee shops, it would probably be Tel Aviv. The coffee is great, all coffee shops are laptop friendly (and gladly provide you with the wifi password), and people are very open to social interaction with strangers. At any given moment you'll find a designer working on a logo, an architecture student reading a post…

How do you all stay productive with laptops? I can't imagine doing any actual coding work unless I have two monitors and a work station.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#154

Post by foldr » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

Zelmor wrote: post #105

I love myself some fine light roasted filter coffee as much as the next person. My biggest concern with these places, however is IT security. Anyone who hasn't played around with their laptops once receiving the wifi password, running their chosen network analysis tools/penetration suite and messing with people whose screen you might even see from two tables away, hands up in the air. I will not be first in line, min…

>Anyone who hasn't played around with their laptops once receiving the wifi password, running their chosen network analysis tools/penetration suite and messing with people whose screen you might even see from two tables away, hands up in the air.

That's not ethical, and depending on exactly what you're doing, possibly not legal either. There's very clearly an implicit assumption that coffee shop wifi is for your own personal (and relatively light use). If you want to do anything else, you should get the permission of the owners.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#155

Post by simonebrunozzi » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

dkopi wrote: post #59

Commenting on this post while I'm at a coffee shop myself. If I had to pick one city for having the best coffee shops, it would probably be Tel Aviv. The coffee is great, all coffee shops are laptop friendly (and gladly provide you with the wifi password), and people are very open to social interaction with strangers. At any given moment you'll find a designer working on a logo, an architecture student reading a post…

I tend to agree with you. I haven't been to Tel Aviv in a while... could you recommend 2-3 places that are worth checking out? I will be back there for a week in September.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#156

Post by ido » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 6:18 PM UTC

dkopi wrote: post #115

ido wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a native to (greater) Tel Aviv now living in Berlin, I much prefer Oceanic weather. ~9 months of the year you'd be sweating if you go outside & do even the slightest physical activity, like leisurely walking or cycling (mostly due to the high humidity, it's not actually that hot most of the time). Berlin is too cold for about 3-4 months per year but the rest of the time is pleasantly cool, like San Francisco or Lo…

As far as transit goes - if you live and work in Tel Aviv, you can pretty much walk wherever you need. True, Berlin is cheaper than Tel Aviv, but it's also cheaper than most other German cities. Wages are also lower in Berlin. Drink an Augustiner Dunkel for me :)

    As far as transit goes - if you live and work in Tel 
    Aviv, you can pretty much walk wherever you need.

This is a big if, as few Israelis can afford to live in Tel Aviv (we couldn't, despite earning significantly above median).

The average gross wage in Israel is 9,702.60 ils per month [1] (2277.78 Euro). According to a quick check [2] this gives a net of 8,302.57 ils per month (1948.94 Euro). A small apartment in good repair in a not-terrible part of Tel Aviv can easily cost ~6000 ils per month, before utilities.

Realistically if you work in Tel Aviv you either live in the suburbs, are in the top ~10% of wage earners, or are young and don't have a family to support (and live with roommates).

[1] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/israel/wages

[2] http://www.payway.co.il/calculator/en/bn3_form.asp

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#157

Post by cylinder » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 6:22 PM UTC

shanusmagnus wrote: post #147

geebee wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with laptop cafes, I bring mine to cafes to work all the time. I really enjoy it. But I also see merit in cafes that establish a no cell, no laptop rule (sometimes just for certain hours of the day). That would be a draw for me (honestly, the no cell phone policy tends to be more of a draw than a no laptop policy). To me, this is very much a one size doesn't fit all situation. It makes no sense to g…

I've dreamed many times about starting a cafe with a no-cell no-laptop policy, but just assumed I was a cranky bastard and the idea was insane. Your post suggests that maybe it's a thing, though - would you mind saying where you've found such cafes?

there are plenty of them here in NY. or, they'll ban before/after the busy period. you can't just buy a $3 cup and sit all day at a table that's costing the operator $10/day to lease. It's also really obnoxious, it makes a place seem boring when people are sitting around anti-socially with their laptops pretending to be studying.

It's a pretty unique American thing -- you can't just sit quietly, you have to always seem busy -- kind of like eating lunch alone.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#158

Post by dkopi » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 6:31 PM UTC

dkopi wrote: post #115

ido wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a native to (greater) Tel Aviv now living in Berlin, I much prefer Oceanic weather. ~9 months of the year you'd be sweating if you go outside & do even the slightest physical activity, like leisurely walking or cycling (mostly due to the high humidity, it's not actually that hot most of the time). Berlin is too cold for about 3-4 months per year but the rest of the time is pleasantly cool, like San Francisco or Lo…

As far as transit goes - if you live and work in Tel Aviv, you can pretty much walk wherever you need. True, Berlin is cheaper than Tel Aviv, but it's also cheaper than most other German cities. Wages are also lower in Berlin. Drink an Augustiner Dunkel for me :)

"A small apartment in good repair in a not-terrible part of Tel Aviv can easily cost ~6000 ils per month, before utilities."

We probably have different definitions of "not terrible part of tel aviv". 1BRs (What israeli's call 2 rooms) go for 4000 shekels in Florentine. Walking distance from the startup scene of Rothschild, and 20 minutes by bus to the google and checkpoint area.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#159

Post by ido » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 6:40 PM UTC

dkopi wrote: post #158

dkopi wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as transit goes - if you live and work in Tel Aviv, you can pretty much walk wherever you need. True, Berlin is cheaper than Tel Aviv, but it's also cheaper than most other German cities. Wages are also lower in Berlin. Drink an Augustiner Dunkel for me :)

"A small apartment in good repair in a not-terrible part of Tel Aviv can easily cost ~6000 ils per month, before utilities." We probably have different definitions of "not terrible part of tel aviv". 1BRs (What israeli's call 2 rooms) go for 4000 shekels in Florentine. Walking distance from the startup scene of Rothschild, and 20 minutes by bus to the google and checkpoint area.

Which is fine for a single guy. But would you want to raise kids in a 1BR in Florentine (polluted, noisy, somewhat rough population in adjacent neighborhoods)?

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#160

Post by noxToken » Fri, Apr 15, 2016, 6:47 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #132

omonra wrote: post #14

"what everyone hates about urban change and gentrification – first come the creatives and their coffee shops, then the young professionals, then the luxury high-rises and corporate chains that push out original residents" I personally have no problem with it. And if we're talking about crappy and dangerous neighborhoods that are becoming upscale - I love it. If anything I think it's the sort of process that benefits…

> "what everyone hates about urban change and gentrification..." I don't mean to be inflammatory, but I've never understood exactly what "everybody" sees as the desired state. When white people move out of urban centers, it is "white flight"... a negative phenomenon. When white people move into urban centers, it is "gentrification"... also a negative phenomenon. Are white people just considered inherently evil, and t…

I see your point, but it's not just moving in/out. It's the subtext of why. I don't think anyone can be faulted for fleeing a neighborhood in the name of safety. The same can likely be said for moving into more impoverish areas that have the potential to grow into prosperous neighborhood. This holds true regardless of race.

If someone is just throwing those terms around just because people move in or out of neighborhoods, then they're missing the overall context of what those terms mean.

> what exactly is the inequality and diversity solution that "everyone" wants?

I don't think this can be easily addressed. Most people want their neighborhoods safe with drivable streets and walkable paths. Some see culture in the history of their neighborhoods. Others want modern architecture and amenities. It really depends on who you ask.