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The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

theguardian.com

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Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#131

Post by geebee »

dvanduzer wrote: post #118
cylinder wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laptops are the opposite of what I want to see in cafes, actually I prefer that they have an outright ban

Laptops are a fantastic way for more introverted people to meet each other. Why do you think it's all the rage to paper your Macbook like a NASCAR driver's jacket? Sure, part of it is just the pure hustle of startups, and the low cost of logo stickers as marketing. To a potential startup founders a few years out of college, the coffee shop full of laptops is going to feel just like the library during study week. (May…

I have no problem with laptop cafes, I bring mine to cafes to work all the time. I really enjoy it. But I also see merit in cafes that establish a no cell, no laptop rule (sometimes just for certain hours of the day). That would be a draw for me (honestly, the no cell phone policy tends to be more of a draw than a no laptop policy).

To me, this is very much a one size doesn't fit all situation. It makes no sense to get into a huff when people are on their laptops in a cafe that permits this. That said, remarkably, some people get strangely enraged when one cafe or bar out of twenty (or hundred) establishes a no cell phone policy. Like, they aren't satisfied that they can have their way in 95% of coffee shops and bars, it has to be this specific one, right now (these folks, interestingly, often think the matter can be cleared up by simply reminding everyone which country we live in).

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#132

Post by StevePerkins »

omonra wrote: post #14

"what everyone hates about urban change and gentrification – first come the creatives and their coffee shops, then the young professionals, then the luxury high-rises and corporate chains that push out original residents" I personally have no problem with it. And if we're talking about crappy and dangerous neighborhoods that are becoming upscale - I love it. If anything I think it's the sort of process that benefits…

> "what everyone hates about urban change and gentrification..."

I don't mean to be inflammatory, but I've never understood exactly what "everybody" sees as the desired state.

When white people move out of urban centers, it is "white flight"... a negative phenomenon. When white people move into urban centers, it is "gentrification"... also a negative phenomenon.

Are white people just considered inherently evil, and their existence a negative phenomenon? Short of total income redistribution, and mandatory relocation (as ethnic groups tend to coalesce even without gaps in income)... what exactly is the inequality and diversity solution that "everyone" wants?

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#133

Post by songshu »

dkopi wrote: post #102
lmm wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The great advantage of SF is its astonishingly consistent climate. I can't speak to Tel Aviv at all, but I'd say make sure you're comfortable working at typical temperatures there - I think that's a key (and unnoticed) part of productivity.

Tel Aviv's weather is very comfortable. Hasn't snowed in tel aviv since 1951. Summers can get hot and humid, but air conditioners are the norm, and dress code is shorts and flip flops. And Tel Aviv has an awesome beach you can actually swim in. To quote wikipedia: Tel Aviv experiences a Mediterranean climate with hot summers and generally mild, wet winters. The average annual temperature is 20.2 °C (68.4 °F). Average…

Are you non-Jewish by any chance? I've had a great time in Israel as a tourist, but often wondered whether I'd be able to fit in there as a non-Jewish (and non-American for that matter) person. I'm not overtly religious in any other way, and I have Jewish people in my family, but there's no way I can pass for Jewish in any extended conversation.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#134

Post by golergka »

maxsilver wrote: post #121
golergka wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About "displacing" people, honest question: why people who already live somewhere (but rent and don't own) should be privileged compared to people who have the same financial ability, but didn't live at said place before? Why is being "priced out" of same place you already live at perceived as something worse than not being able to afford to move into some neighborhood to begin with? BTW, apartment that I live in rig…

> Why is being "priced out" of same place you already live at perceived as something worse than not being able to afford to move into some neighborhood to begin with? 1) The people being priced out are often the people that made the neighborhood nicer to live in. Developers don't improve neighborhoods, people do. And these people are usually the first to go when developments move in and drive up the cost, because the…

> (Your artists, musicians, students, young families, folks on shoestring budgets opening hipster coffee shops and restaurants, etc)

But eh — those guys actually have to move _in_ to gentrification to happen. And before they move in, it's usually really ordinary poor people moving out: because, believe it or not, "starving" liberal art major is not as poor as an illegal immigrant family with 5 kids.

> It's that nearly every lower-class or middle-class urban place that was even slightly nice to live in is rapidly becoming "rich-people-only". Where does that end?

I'm not from US, so I may not be seeing what you're talking about exactly, but you're talking about late-stage gentrifying here. But early stage gentrifying is the opposite: it makes poor, awful areas into those nice middle-class areas to begin with. So by the time you (we're talking about low-middle class, right?) have to move out when the area is full of elite condos, there's another neighbourhood that just became trendy enough for you to move it.

> Property owners can also get displaced through gentrification -- owning property does not make someone immune to this problem

Don't see a real difference here: it's all just free market mechanisms regulating situations where a lot of different people compete for the same thing.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#135

Post by Shengbo »

cylinder wrote: post #100
Shengbo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can remember a time (1980's and earlier) when the modern version of the coffee shop didn't exist. Are you talking about the US here? I'm pretty sure they've been around in Europe and the Middle East for centuries.

Yeah, he's talking about the US only. My US suburb, quite large, never had a coffee shop until Starbucks in 2001. Sad.

It's interesting how long it took for the US to adopt them. I wonder why the coffee shop culture wasn't exported earlier. I wouldn't compare Starbucks to European style cafés though. It's sort of like the McDonald's of coffee shops. Not a good experience if you're looking for quality coffee and a pleasant atmosphere.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#136

Post by ido »

dkopi wrote: post #115
ido wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a native to (greater) Tel Aviv now living in Berlin, I much prefer Oceanic weather. ~9 months of the year you'd be sweating if you go outside & do even the slightest physical activity, like leisurely walking or cycling (mostly due to the high humidity, it's not actually that hot most of the time). Berlin is too cold for about 3-4 months per year but the rest of the time is pleasantly cool, like San Francisco or Lo…

As far as transit goes - if you live and work in Tel Aviv, you can pretty much walk wherever you need. True, Berlin is cheaper than Tel Aviv, but it's also cheaper than most other German cities. Wages are also lower in Berlin. Drink an Augustiner Dunkel for me :)

Isn't that a Bavarian brewery? I'll drink a Berliner Kindl though ;)

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#137

Post by dkopi »

dkopi wrote: post #115
ido wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a native to (greater) Tel Aviv now living in Berlin, I much prefer Oceanic weather. ~9 months of the year you'd be sweating if you go outside & do even the slightest physical activity, like leisurely walking or cycling (mostly due to the high humidity, it's not actually that hot most of the time). Berlin is too cold for about 3-4 months per year but the rest of the time is pleasantly cool, like San Francisco or Lo…

As far as transit goes - if you live and work in Tel Aviv, you can pretty much walk wherever you need. True, Berlin is cheaper than Tel Aviv, but it's also cheaper than most other German cities. Wages are also lower in Berlin. Drink an Augustiner Dunkel for me :)

It is :) but they have an awesome beer hall at Gendarmenmarkt.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#138

Post by cylinder »

Shengbo wrote: post #135
cylinder wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, he's talking about the US only. My US suburb, quite large, never had a coffee shop until Starbucks in 2001. Sad.

It's interesting how long it took for the US to adopt them. I wonder why the coffee shop culture wasn't exported earlier. I wouldn't compare Starbucks to European style cafés though. It's sort of like the McDonald's of coffee shops. Not a good experience if you're looking for quality coffee and a pleasant atmosphere.

Yeah Sbux is terrible, there is still a dearth of good cafes across the US. Only now is NYC picking some up via Australian imports.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#139

Post by justifier »

Xcelerate wrote: post #2

> I love looking in through the outside window and seeing everyone on MacBooks, it’s busy, it’s exciting and yet you’ll get someone walking passed saying ‘Oh my god, look in there, everyone is on a laptop! What’s wrong with them! Why don’t they talk to each other!?’ This is funny, because it perfectly describes the difference in attitude between me and my father. He gets annoyed when he walks into a coffee shop and s…

what the hell is water?

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#140

Post by ben_jones »

dkopi wrote: post #59

Commenting on this post while I'm at a coffee shop myself. If I had to pick one city for having the best coffee shops, it would probably be Tel Aviv. The coffee is great, all coffee shops are laptop friendly (and gladly provide you with the wifi password), and people are very open to social interaction with strangers. At any given moment you'll find a designer working on a logo, an architecture student reading a post…

So what you're saying is Tel Aviv coffee shops are ideal for tech workers? Got to remember most of the world could care less about the logo designer, the architect, the programmer, etc. It worries me that tech is becoming a social club where you're either in it it completely or out of it. What's it like to be a low-wage blue collar worker in SF outside of the tech industry? This post would make it seems like they have nothing to talk about.
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