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The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

theguardian.com

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Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#41

Post by davorb »

nefitty wrote: post #26
sgillen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly would you offer as an alternative to globalization? Purely curious.

I basically trust the process of globalization. "You don't go to war with your trading partners." The main fault I pointed out has to do with a lack of protectionary measures for the sections of society most at risk. I think this also has relevance to the gentrification debate, though looking into the data it seems like governments continue failing on that front. I wasn't smart enough to come up with an alternative t…

> "You don't go to war with your trading partners."

http://blogs.reuters.com/anatole-kaletsky/2014/06/27/world-w...

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#42

Post by Shengbo »

mysterypie wrote: post #11
Xcelerate wrote: post #2

> I love looking in through the outside window and seeing everyone on MacBooks, it’s busy, it’s exciting and yet you’ll get someone walking passed saying ‘Oh my god, look in there, everyone is on a laptop! What’s wrong with them! Why don’t they talk to each other!?’ This is funny, because it perfectly describes the difference in attitude between me and my father. He gets annoyed when he walks into a coffee shop and s…

> I think the atmosphere is quite cozy, and love taking my own stuff to work on I can remember a time (1980's and earlier) when the modern version of the coffee shop didn't exist. The nearest equivalent was a bar: Dimly lit, filled with smoke, loud annoying music, aggressive people, and a waiter coming around every 10 minutes to ask/demand if you want another drink. If you dared bring in some papers or a book to read…

>I can remember a time (1980's and earlier) when the modern version of the coffee shop didn't exist.

Are you talking about the US here? I'm pretty sure they've been around in Europe and the Middle East for centuries.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#43

Post by austinjp »

mc32 wrote: post #17
golergka wrote: post #10

Why is the author so quick to assume that everyone sees gentrification as something bad? There's been vocal opposition to it, but it doesn't mean that everybody feels that way.

When they don't have it people want it, and when they get it, they don't want it. Run down cities, rust belt cities wish for gentrification, people who live in places going down hill wish for it too, it brings safer neighborhoods, better stores, more jobs, on the other hand people decry rising rents and "changing the character" of the neighborhood, as if unemployment and the transients didn't also"change the characte…

I don't think it's a binary either-or. People obviously want safety and opportunity. They also tend to want to preserve the micro-culture of their neighbourhood. "Globalisation" (whatever that is) feels homogenous and corporate. Some people don't want that, they don't want to live in a place that could be anywhere else. They want to own the land and property, not be priced out.

I'm quite surprised at people here suggesting that it's okay to displace the poor. It's not. Change, process and improvement are most effective when they take everyone along for the ride. Everyone's seen Gataca, right?

I'm sure there are plenty of alternatives to the current gentrification model. Plenty of low-cost housing, for one. Sensitivity from local councils who take a long-term view and try to protect local business, for another. A complex discussion, I don't have all the answers.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#44

Post by Shengbo »

ido wrote: post #34
mysterypie wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the atmosphere is quite cozy, and love taking my own stuff to work on I can remember a time (1980's and earlier) when the modern version of the coffee shop didn't exist. The nearest equivalent was a bar: Dimly lit, filled with smoke, loud annoying music, aggressive people, and a waiter coming around every 10 minutes to ask/demand if you want another drink. If you dared bring in some papers or a book to read…

Might be geographical? Many of Vienna's most popular cafés were established in the 1800s.

Yes, as far as I know the very first cafés in Europe opened in the 17th century in Vienna, Paris and London and then spread to Italy and the rest of the Austro-Hungarian empire over the following two centuries.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#45

Post by DrJokepu »

Shengbo wrote: post #44
ido wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be geographical? Many of Vienna's most popular cafés were established in the 1800s.

Yes, as far as I know the very first cafés in Europe opened in the 17th century in Vienna, Paris and London and then spread to Italy and the rest of the Austro-Hungarian empire over the following two centuries.

Yep, there were revolutions in Europe that started out in coffee shops.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#46

Post by rfrey »

seer wrote: post #35
nxzero wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Penny: Hey, Sheldon, did you change your wifi password again? Sheldon: Yes, it's "Penny, get your own wifi." No spaces. ___ TV-Show: The Big Bang Theory Source: http://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/hey-sheldon-did-you-change-y...

Can someone please explain (or point out a link to the rules in question) why is this post getting downvoted? I understand the parent comment is not very informative, but this one I found quite helpful as I had forgotten the quote in question and it is relevant to the "wi-fi password discussion" the grandparent has started. Additionally I would simply love a bot like that going around explaining popular media quotes.…

I think there's a HN cultural preference to avoid stream-of-consciousness tangents, so even clever or informative -- but off-topic -- replies to such tangents tend to suffer.

IMO this is the source of some people's impression that humour isn't welcome here. My experience is the opposite - on-topic (and funny) comments do well even if only a joke or quip, but off-topic humour sinks, even if clever and civil.

I'm quite lowbrow and really enjoy the more clever comment chains on Reddit, but I also appreciate the HN alternative, where attempts at pun chains, etc. sink to the bottom and on-topic thoughts rise.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#47

Post by lamby »

golergka wrote: post #10

Why is the author so quick to assume that everyone sees gentrification as something bad? There's been vocal opposition to it, but it doesn't mean that everybody feels that way.

I remember when we used to call gentrification "progress".

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#48

Post by lamby »

jkot wrote: post #29

I think there was post while ago which tried to predict property price raise based on number of new coffee shops.

It's probably not a bad idea - I mean, why not piggy-back and/or trust Starbucks research and experience in where to locate stores!

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#49

Post by Ao7bei3s »

seer wrote: post #35
nxzero wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Penny: Hey, Sheldon, did you change your wifi password again? Sheldon: Yes, it's "Penny, get your own wifi." No spaces. ___ TV-Show: The Big Bang Theory Source: http://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/hey-sheldon-did-you-change-y...

Can someone please explain (or point out a link to the rules in question) why is this post getting downvoted? I understand the parent comment is not very informative, but this one I found quite helpful as I had forgotten the quote in question and it is relevant to the "wi-fi password discussion" the grandparent has started. Additionally I would simply love a bot like that going around explaining popular media quotes.…

If you really wanted to find out about the quote, it's just a google search away. For everyone else, it's useless pop culture trivia obscuring real content.

(The right way to do this would be to add a feature to the HN/reddit forum software that allows unobtrusive footnotes to comments. Acronyms could just be auto-hyperlinked (with short definition in the alt text) in the original comment.)

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#50

Post by [deleted] »

nefitty wrote: post #20
omonra wrote: post #14

"what everyone hates about urban change and gentrification – first come the creatives and their coffee shops, then the young professionals, then the luxury high-rises and corporate chains that push out original residents" I personally have no problem with it. And if we're talking about crappy and dangerous neighborhoods that are becoming upscale - I love it. If anything I think it's the sort of process that benefits…

I can't help interpreting your opinion as, "it's ok to kick the poor people out, as long as the upper classes, government and businesses prosper." People aren't numbers to throw into a mean function. That "net positive" argument is what has been used to excuse globalization's "there have to be some losers" philosophy, which disproportionately affects those already in poverty. A sense of community is one of the few th…

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