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The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

theguardian.com

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Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#31

Post by jacobush »

mc32 wrote: post #17
golergka wrote: post #10

Why is the author so quick to assume that everyone sees gentrification as something bad? There's been vocal opposition to it, but it doesn't mean that everybody feels that way.

When they don't have it people want it, and when they get it, they don't want it. Run down cities, rust belt cities wish for gentrification, people who live in places going down hill wish for it too, it brings safer neighborhoods, better stores, more jobs, on the other hand people decry rising rents and "changing the character" of the neighborhood, as if unemployment and the transients didn't also"change the characte…

What people want is for their neighbourhood to be better, while not in the process being driven from their homes to make room for wealthier people. Maybe it's naive or a pipe dream.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#32

Post by mc32 »

jacobush wrote: post #31
mc32 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they don't have it people want it, and when they get it, they don't want it. Run down cities, rust belt cities wish for gentrification, people who live in places going down hill wish for it too, it brings safer neighborhoods, better stores, more jobs, on the other hand people decry rising rents and "changing the character" of the neighborhood, as if unemployment and the transients didn't also"change the characte…

What people want is for their neighbourhood to be better, while not in the process being driven from their homes to make room for wealthier people. Maybe it's naive or a pipe dream.

Oh, certainly. If we could, most people would want control over what kind of "element" rich, poor, educated, uneducated, employed, unemployed, criminal, non criminal, etc. gets to move into their neighborhoods and cities.... But that has proven problematic, in the past. Not just in the US but in many places.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#33

Post by venomsnake »

golergka wrote: post #10

Why is the author so quick to assume that everyone sees gentrification as something bad? There's been vocal opposition to it, but it doesn't mean that everybody feels that way.

A lot of factors converge to make gentrification opposition the next cause celebre. Sometimes even upheld by the gentrifiers themselves.

It plays very nicely into current economic, racial and so on divides in the cultural war.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#34

Post by ido »

mysterypie wrote: post #11
Xcelerate wrote: post #2

> I love looking in through the outside window and seeing everyone on MacBooks, it’s busy, it’s exciting and yet you’ll get someone walking passed saying ‘Oh my god, look in there, everyone is on a laptop! What’s wrong with them! Why don’t they talk to each other!?’ This is funny, because it perfectly describes the difference in attitude between me and my father. He gets annoyed when he walks into a coffee shop and s…

> I think the atmosphere is quite cozy, and love taking my own stuff to work on I can remember a time (1980's and earlier) when the modern version of the coffee shop didn't exist. The nearest equivalent was a bar: Dimly lit, filled with smoke, loud annoying music, aggressive people, and a waiter coming around every 10 minutes to ask/demand if you want another drink. If you dared bring in some papers or a book to read…

Might be geographical? Many of Vienna's most popular cafés were established in the 1800s.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#35

Post by seer »

nxzero wrote: post #6
WalterBright wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

penny-get-your-own-wifi

Penny: Hey, Sheldon, did you change your wifi password again? Sheldon: Yes, it's "Penny, get your own wifi." No spaces. ___ TV-Show: The Big Bang Theory Source: http://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/hey-sheldon-did-you-change-y...

Can someone please explain (or point out a link to the rules in question) why is this post getting downvoted? I understand the parent comment is not very informative, but this one I found quite helpful as I had forgotten the quote in question and it is relevant to the "wi-fi password discussion" the grandparent has started.

Additionally I would simply love a bot like that going around explaining popular media quotes. I frequent the SpaceX subreddit and they have one explaining space related acronyms whenever any are found in the discussion. Makes reading it a lot more pleasant.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#36

Post by xzi »

mysterypie wrote: post #11
Xcelerate wrote: post #2

> I love looking in through the outside window and seeing everyone on MacBooks, it’s busy, it’s exciting and yet you’ll get someone walking passed saying ‘Oh my god, look in there, everyone is on a laptop! What’s wrong with them! Why don’t they talk to each other!?’ This is funny, because it perfectly describes the difference in attitude between me and my father. He gets annoyed when he walks into a coffee shop and s…

> I think the atmosphere is quite cozy, and love taking my own stuff to work on I can remember a time (1980's and earlier) when the modern version of the coffee shop didn't exist. The nearest equivalent was a bar: Dimly lit, filled with smoke, loud annoying music, aggressive people, and a waiter coming around every 10 minutes to ask/demand if you want another drink. If you dared bring in some papers or a book to read…

I remember those days. And I couldn't go into the bars, being in my teens in the mid-to-late 80s. The best option was the all night places like IHOP. As long as you tipped well and weren't loud, they'd let you hold down a booth with nothing but coffee for most of the night.

And then moved to a college town which already had 3-4 competing coffee shops in 1989. Felt like heaven. Doing homework on my old Powerbook. Sitting with friends, having a smoke, if by myself then reading something difficult and hoping a cute smart girl would notice.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#37

Post by cossatot »

nefitty wrote: post #20
omonra wrote: post #14

"what everyone hates about urban change and gentrification – first come the creatives and their coffee shops, then the young professionals, then the luxury high-rises and corporate chains that push out original residents" I personally have no problem with it. And if we're talking about crappy and dangerous neighborhoods that are becoming upscale - I love it. If anything I think it's the sort of process that benefits…

I can't help interpreting your opinion as, "it's ok to kick the poor people out, as long as the upper classes, government and businesses prosper." People aren't numbers to throw into a mean function. That "net positive" argument is what has been used to excuse globalization's "there have to be some losers" philosophy, which disproportionately affects those already in poverty. A sense of community is one of the few th…

I don't know a whole lot about the general outcomes of those slowly and progressively displaced by gentrification but in sufficiently small catastrophies (i.e. not Syria) the displaced lower classes often do better economically. For example, Katrina refugees who stayed away are reported to have more income and live in safer and less impoverished areas with better schools (e.g. [1]). The city is more diverse and affluent as well (look for Citylab article on this, I can't look up atm) so it might not be a selection bias thing.

However complaints all around are that social networks and cultures were destroyed. It seems that when it's time to move, people move towards economic opportunity rather than for culture, etc. Hopefully with time those social networks can develop into the next rich permutation.

[1]: http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/a...

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#38

Post by jacalata »

cossatot wrote: post #37
nefitty wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help interpreting your opinion as, "it's ok to kick the poor people out, as long as the upper classes, government and businesses prosper." People aren't numbers to throw into a mean function. That "net positive" argument is what has been used to excuse globalization's "there have to be some losers" philosophy, which disproportionately affects those already in poverty. A sense of community is one of the few th…

I don't know a whole lot about the general outcomes of those slowly and progressively displaced by gentrification but in sufficiently small catastrophies (i.e. not Syria) the displaced lower classes often do better economically. For example, Katrina refugees who stayed away are reported to have more income and live in safer and less impoverished areas with better schools (e.g. [1]). The city is more diverse and afflu…

Your link is subscriber only - does it address selection bias, eg perhaps those who relocated had an existing advantage?

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#39

Post by cel1ne »

ido wrote: post #34
mysterypie wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the atmosphere is quite cozy, and love taking my own stuff to work on I can remember a time (1980's and earlier) when the modern version of the coffee shop didn't exist. The nearest equivalent was a bar: Dimly lit, filled with smoke, loud annoying music, aggressive people, and a waiter coming around every 10 minutes to ask/demand if you want another drink. If you dared bring in some papers or a book to read…

Might be geographical? Many of Vienna's most popular cafés were established in the 1800s.

My exact thought. I also think elsewhere im europe there were cafes and bars where especially writers would work.

Re: The caffeine curse: why coffee shops have always signalled urban change

#40

Post by retube »

omonra wrote: post #14

"what everyone hates about urban change and gentrification – first come the creatives and their coffee shops, then the young professionals, then the luxury high-rises and corporate chains that push out original residents" I personally have no problem with it. And if we're talking about crappy and dangerous neighborhoods that are becoming upscale - I love it. If anything I think it's the sort of process that benefits…

> If anything I think it's the sort of process that benefits majority of population while extracting a cost on a minority. If we look at total effect, it's certainly net positive.

Absolutely. Otherwise we'd all be still living in wooden shacks tilling the fields. Change inevitably effects some people negatively, but without it things can't, on average, get better.

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