What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation • Hacker News Board

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#101

Post by tominous » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 2:49 PM UTC

jere wrote: post #81

tominous wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eric Raymond had an interesting take on the link between autism and exceptional achievement (if you can get past his ego). http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=7060 In short, the time and energy normally spent on social interaction instead is spent on other aspects of life.

>if you can get past his ego Sorry, I can't. >I was thought to be a child prodigy with exceptional mathematical gifts; in 1975 I was the first high-school student in the institution’s memory to present original research at the annual meeting of the American Mathematical Society. Unusually large working memory, check. I’m pretty sure the authors would consider me a genius, unless they know a lot of people who have bee…

Apologies to everyone for the ad-hominem flame-fest I seem to have triggered. I would have preferred this to stay on topic.

jere, you do make a good point that there is more to it than just having free time and energy. e.g. There is also the "systemising" impulse often seen in high-functioning autistic individuals that seems suited to success in modern times.

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#102

Post by Zenst » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

randomgyatwork wrote: post #97

We need to stop seeing different types of personalities as diseases.

agreed it is by any other form, mental racism. People are people and they are all individuals, just sadly collected up in group definitions imposed by others. Still in a society that labels politicians in negative ways in general, it is a trait that prevails across many aspects of life and people do like to categorise and label things.

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#103

Post by thedevil » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 3:16 PM UTC

motti wrote: post #84

My mother published a fairly seminal paper on the topic [1] 18 years ago which concludes that emotional awareness (specifically, the "Theory of Mind"[2]) can be learned by people with Autism. At the time this was against prevailing wisdom but AFAIK is now considered accepted wisdom. [1] https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?cluster=165456960940191... [2] https://www.autism.com/understanding_theoryofmind

So do you, or anyone else, know good methods and resources for teaching children with autism theory of mind?

My son is ASD (as I probably am). And I want to help him out so that he doesn't have to learn the hard way as I did. I'm going to buy the Social Stories book (mentioned in your link) off Amazon. I'd love to hear any other helpful ideas.

I also read several body language books over the years. The best is What Every Body is Saying, in case that's helpful for anyone. Unfortunately, reading a book is not as good as practicing.

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#104

Post by mpol » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

junko wrote: post #67

k__ wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I knew a few lightly autistic people who also aren't exceptionally good at anything. Some are better than average programmers or something. But their autism is a greater burden than their increased skills are a help in their life. It's not that they just sit at home all day, avoiding people and creating awesome stuff en masse. Most of the suffer from their inability to interact socially.

But that burden can be lightened. I wonder why local groups along the lines of 'Autistic Anonymous' don't exist, or even if they do, aren't widespread enough as there is a significant minority of the population who are autistic. I'm talking about those who are in the 'higher' spectrum of course, though by no means the group should turn into genius club or something. I agree, autistic people can also be average-skille…

In The Netherlands there is a group http://ietsdrinken.nl (Let's have a drink) that organises meetings in several cities. It is organized by and for people with autism. It now exists for about 5 years and is quite succesfull. Every city has its own wednesday evening each month, so people know the routine.

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#105

Post by cpncrunch » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

tehwalrus wrote: post #61

Some people have argued [1] that it was not his autism, but his alexithymia which was altered by the TMS. Alexithymia is an orthogonal condition: it can occur with or without autism. Believing that a "cure" for autism is required is also a rejection of neuro-atypicality as a valid state of being, which is a common form of subconscious Ablism (discrimination against disabled people). That is not to say that no autisti…

>Some people have argued [1] that it was not his autism, but his alexithymia which was altered by the TMS. Alexithymia is an orthogonal condition: it can occur with or without autism.

We don't really know if the TMS actually cured his alexithymia or if it was due to psychological/behaviour factors of the treatment. That would require a placebo-controlled trial. It's certainly plausible that the treatment cured him, as there is a part of the brain that attaches emotions to experiences (the insular cortex). On the other hand TMS will have a huge placebo effect, so this needs to be considered.

It also seems plausible that his lack of emotions is a protection mechanism that protected him from his highly dysfunctional childhood. I would recommend reading John Sarno's books: he has spent 50 years treating people who's problem is the opposite of this. Too much emotion tends to cause chronic pain/fatigue/depression and other issues. So I'm not sure it's generally a good idea to do something like this.

Overall, I don't really see this as being any better than a behavioural treatment designed to help people identify with their feelings. TMS seems too much like hitting your computer with a hammer to fix a bug.

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#106

Post by Practicality » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 3:18 PM UTC

So, funny that on hacker news and lots of programming blogs when this topic comes up a lot of people chime in about being on the (autistic side) of the spectrum too.

Ironically, I feel left out. I am on the other end of the spectrum. Kind of like what this guy described after the treatment, although I've been dealing with it my whole life, so I don't get all worried.

I feel like the only programmer who is intensely aware of the emotional state of my colleagues. I can sometimes tell people what they are feeling (when they are opening up) and it shocks them because I know it better than they do.

Of course, I listen to trance-music at work so I can pretend to be autistic (please understand it's a bit of a joke) and ignore all the swirling emotions.

Anyway, I've found others like me, but they seem to be more rare than autistic people. It seems to me like it would be nice to not be aware of all the emotions all the time.

I sincerely envy the "insensitive" people quite often.

It seems like it would be a lot easier if I were able to be selfish to a normal level without caring that someone's emotions might be unsettled.

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#107

Post by cmdrfred » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

thedevil wrote: post #96

Diederich wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unclear how far along I am on the spectrum, but emotional intelligence is something I acquired late and with much effort.

Same here. I was able to learn social skills in my late teens and through my twenties. It wasn't exactly a fun process though. I'd try to "act normal" and then get feedback that taught me I was breaking a social norm. Feedback = kids making fun of me or cringing out of pity and embarrassment for me. And I wasn't very sensitive to the feedback so it took a lot of feedback to learn. Now I seem normal-ish and life is pe…

My story is similar to yours except I made a conscious decision to buck the trends and didn't work too hard on acting normal. I worry about what will happen to the kids growing up in this new safe-zone anti-bullying world? That feedback was invaluable to me, in fact it was probably the most important thing I learned in high school.

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#108

Post by neogodless » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

jonaf wrote: post #23

0942v8653 wrote: post #17

An article written by Robison: An Experimental Autism Treatment Cost Me My Marriage https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11313452 (26 days ago, 560 points, 313 comments)

My 2-year-old son is the happiest, sweetest little boy. He was diagnosed with autism about 6 months ago by a pediatric neurologist, who we saw because he has zero communication skills (verbal or otherwise). He is almost always remarkably happy, and we love that about him. However, as you may imagine, it's impossible to discipline him, because he doesn't understand when you are disappointed or say "no" firmly. He thin…

Is that to say if he bites or hits, and you indicate that the recipient of the bite is hurting and in pain, he does not recognize that pain?

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#109

Post by louprado » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

Practicality wrote: post #106

So, funny that on hacker news and lots of programming blogs when this topic comes up a lot of people chime in about being on the (autistic side) of the spectrum too. Ironically, I feel left out. I am on the other end of the spectrum. Kind of like what this guy described after the treatment, although I've been dealing with it my whole life, so I don't get all worried. I feel like the only programmer who is intensely a…

> normal level without caring

One of my personal quotes is "caring is the first step towards insanity".

Over-caring/empathy can also push one towards an unhealthy level of isolation as a coping mechanism. Granted that is a choice whereas someone on the spectrum faces isolation by default.

Re: What It’s Like to ‘Wake Up’ from Autism After Magnetic Stimulation

#110

Post by restalis » Thu, Apr 14, 2016, 3:51 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #98

restalis wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if I could experiment with inducing autism in myself I totally would" You can. You distance yourself from people, suggesting yourself over and over that you don't really need much social interaction, communicate with people only outside perceptions and feelings and the entire world around you starts to change. Each time you'll catch yourself analyzing emotions you'll stop due to its error-prone nature and switch to…

Well I already do that pretty much. I would not recommend it. Social interaction can be very rewarding, sometimes. I don't agree with your spock like view of emotions. As if they were the enemy of the rational. You can be rational and emotional. They are orthogonal. I think of emotions are sort of a utility function. They tell you what you want. Rationality just tells you how to get what you want. They complement eac…

"Without emotions there'd be no point in doing anything."

This is a mantra supported by the (still) majority of our current society. I presume that people who believe it don't really bother to investigate other beliefs or if there might be another base for "doing anything". To give you a hint, "emotion" and "feeling" are not the same (and "feeling" is more than "sensation"). For example, curiosity made you want to learn about the world around you and logical (mental) stimulation is the expected reason for wanting challenge and accomplishment. Emotions are just another kind of mental stimulation, one that (as I've mentioned before) played out its role and become a liability for far too many.

As a side note, when you'll drop again references in the future, don't make it too hard for your audience to pick them up. As a non-native English speaker it wasn't obvious to me that "spock" is a character (whose name I would have capitalized) instead of a less used word.