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Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

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Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#131

Post by tptacek »

boucher wrote: post #124
davemc500hats wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is likely the case that rqmt #1 -- that is, the creation of at least 5 full-time jobs in the US -- will easily be met by most entrepreneurs if they have any shred of competence and/or economic viability. the rest of your argument is perhaps interesting from a theoretical standpoint, but not likely very relevant from a practical perspective. it's very simple: create 5 full-time jobs in the US in 2 years time, and y…

There are no restrictions on the kinds of jobs created? In other words, it's acceptable to create 5 minimum wage jobs? I'm not saying that's a problem, but it certainly makes the requirement easier to satisfy. A full time minimum wage job including taxes is just about $20k a year.

Yes, it's acceptable to create 5 minimum wage jobs. In other words, if you are sponsored by an appropriate financier, you can obtain permanent residency for approximately $100,000 per year over 3 years.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#132

Post by alex_c »

BerislavLopac wrote: post #122
davemc500hats wrote: post #91

sorry i'm just seeing this thread now; been working all morning / early afternoon keeping up with posts & info on Startup Visa Act. i'll do my best to comment where appropriate based on my understanding of the proposed legislation. 1) people who want to "buy a VISA" (aka have the money to invest in a new business already) wouldn't need any new legislation. the existing EB-5 handles this. 2) VCs have no specific contr…

I certainly can't understand what is gained by bringing the entrepreneurs to a market already saturated with too many competitors? If you need more entrepreneurs from abroad, they can do as much from their own countries as from the US. And once their companies grow they could easily open an office in the States, allowing them to travel easily on a simple work visa. WHY should non-US entrepreneurs need to come to the…

I certainly can't understand what is gained by bringing the entrepreneurs to a market already saturated with too many competitors?

Well, that really depends on what market you enter, doesn't it? :)

WHY should non-US entrepreneurs need to come to the States to start businesses?

From the perspective of the US, that should be obvious: because the new jobs would be created in the US rather than the entrepreneur's home country.

From the entrepreneur's perspective, that's a much better question, and the answer will vary from case to case.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#133

Post by petercooper »

davemc500hats wrote: post #126
aditya wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dave, I think the big issue most people on here are having, is the fact that if you fail to either create 5 jobs or revenue of $1MM or a larger VC round, you get kicked back to your own country despite having invested 2 years and all the effort that comes with planting your roots in a completely new country. It is hard to understand this if you've (and I'm not calling you out) never switched countries but the older y…

aditya: dude, if you can't create at least 5 jobs in 2 years with $250K in capital, you're a pretty pathetic excuse for an entrepreneur. this is not a handout, it's a hand up. we expect people to innovate, create jobs, and create positive economic results. we're trying to help those who are willing to help themselves. and yes, those entrepreneurs who are more capable -- that is, can run a business profitably at some…

dude, if you can't create at least 5 jobs in 2 years with $250K in capital, you're a pretty pathetic excuse for an entrepreneur.

And a poor law player too ;-) With unemployment set to remain pretty high over the next several years, employing a few minimum wage "office managers" to make up the numbers (assuming you get the extra funding or do the >$1M revenue) isn't going to cost very much.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#134

Post by smallblacksun »

adw wrote: post #108
pg wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's such a dishonest way of describing the situation that it's hard to believe it wasn't deliberate. You describe this bill as if it merely allowed powerful people to get their friends into the country, and it's not like that at all. Startup investors are not identical with the rich and connected. Angel investors are generally fairly rich, but not all VCs are. And they're not choosing people at random to bring int…

To be fair, you can turn that round; my reading of what Brian said was that he thought this bill was open to abuse, which could make your reading seem disingenuous. Neither interpretation's fair to either of you, though. (I have no horse in this race; living in Europe, the idea of a visa seems a bit anachronistic, really.)

I'm pretty sure that visas are required to work anywhere in Europe (if you are from outside the EU). I know that the UK, France and Germany require them.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#135

Post by henrikschroder »

blackguardx wrote: post #127
adw wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, you can turn that round; my reading of what Brian said was that he thought this bill was open to abuse, which could make your reading seem disingenuous. Neither interpretation's fair to either of you, though. (I have no horse in this race; living in Europe, the idea of a visa seems a bit anachronistic, really.)

I currently live in the US. Can I just move to Europe and get a job? Or, do I have to do some sort of paperwork first (like get a visa)?

If you are not a EU citizen you need a residence permit and a work permit. I don't know how different the rules are between the EU countries, but it's roughly the same everwhere. A work permit is typically tied to an employer, and a residence permit is typically tied to a work permit.

Here's the different kinds for Sweden: http://www.migrationsverket.se/info/1074_en.html

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#136

Post by fnid2 »

lionhearted wrote: post #125
fnid2 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, this is a philosophical question that I can't offer an answer to without the potential contamination of lots of personal bias, but I'll tell you how I think about it. A lot of countries have a lot of rich people at the helm and aren't really, what I would call, benefiting from that. It could even be argued that a lot of the problems in countries are caused by the rich. I think about it kind of like this: We…

> If you believe in Greatest Good for the Greatest Number anyway, but not all subscribe to that philosophy. I do I think. This is a bit tangential, but I think it's quite important - Greatest Good is a very important belief for someone to consider, and you've written really thoughtfully and introspectively. Here's my perspective, which is a little different: Sometimes I voluntarily do things to make other people happ…

I'm not suggesting we take the $10,000 from a rich person and give it to 10 poor people, rather I'm saying, "We have a surplus of wealth equal to $10,000 and must decide what to do with it. Someone is going to benefit, how do we distribute the surplus such that it creates the most good?

I would suggest distributing the wealth equally among all is the best route to the greatest happiness, rather than giving most or all of it to one individual for whom it may not even be noticed.

I'm not sure, restricting freedoms of the innocent or demanding individuals work to benefit others at their own expense could create a net positive. The "badness" of that might be infinity.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#137

Post by lionhearted »

davemc500hats wrote: post #118
tptacek wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drastically relaxing green card restrictions.

perhaps a laudable goal, however: 1) not mutually exclusive to proposed Startup Visa Act 2) politically MUCH more challenging to pull off feel free to contribute to other efforts to promote your ideas. however, hope you don't feel the need to tear down our (complementary) ones that may be achieved practically & expediently. light a candle, don't piss on ours.

> light a candle, don't piss on ours.

Hey mate, did you edit that into your comment or did I just miss it the first time? Because I upvoted you since I agree with the not mutual exclusive/harder to pull off thing, but no need to be crass like that. It doesn't help further the position we generally agree on, and clouds the discussion. tpt is a smart and good commentor anyways, even though we disagree some times - it's totally unnecessary to be crass with him like that.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#138

Post by aditya »

davemc500hats wrote: post #126
aditya wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dave, I think the big issue most people on here are having, is the fact that if you fail to either create 5 jobs or revenue of $1MM or a larger VC round, you get kicked back to your own country despite having invested 2 years and all the effort that comes with planting your roots in a completely new country. It is hard to understand this if you've (and I'm not calling you out) never switched countries but the older y…

aditya: dude, if you can't create at least 5 jobs in 2 years with $250K in capital, you're a pretty pathetic excuse for an entrepreneur. this is not a handout, it's a hand up. we expect people to innovate, create jobs, and create positive economic results. we're trying to help those who are willing to help themselves. and yes, those entrepreneurs who are more capable -- that is, can run a business profitably at some…

Hah.

The question is what happens when you fail. Obviously, if you have 100-250k, you can hire 2 people. But then what happens if the biz fails? You created 2 (probably more jobs) and now you're going to get kicked back to your own country? Or am I mis-reading this, and as soon as you hire 2 people you get your green card?

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#139

Post by tptacek »

davemc500hats wrote: post #115
icey wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha, okay so "strict requirements" is not the right way to describe it. To do what Max was talking about would only require $200K to get in the door, and the willingness of an accredited investor to commit fraud.

there are obvious rqmts to qualify that require time and effort in addition to capital, and a track record of investment over at least 3 years and 6 previous companies. there are obvious penalties which would be incurred if someone intentionally abused this system. legislation does not prevent all types of abuse, however we have attempted to reasonably make it unlikely that such abuse would not occur without great co…

So, again, requiring a track record of investment over at east 3 years and 6 companies might (for instance) exclude Warren Buffet, and keeping the requirements loose means that virtually anyone can "sponsor" an "entrepreneur" for very little money and get them 3 years residency in the US.

This just doesn't seem well thought out.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#140

Post by tptacek »

davemc500hats wrote: post #114
tptacek wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this bill was conceived with the best of intentions. I believe everybody advocating it, including venture capitalists, are advocating with the best of intentions. But their intentions don't matter at all . What matters is the law that the bill will create. And, as I read it, the law that this bill creates will have unintended negative consequences both for immigration and entrepreneurship. Your last sentenc…

the 3 points are an OR, not an AND. you misinterpreted it. altho the legislation as proposed is not final, it was clearly drafted and stated with each of the 3 potential rqmts being sufficient on their own, not together.

It costs less than $100k per year to keep 5 "full-time" workers on staff. Just pay them minimum wage. This seems well-thought-out to you?
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