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40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

washingtonpost.com

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Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#71

Post by dublinclontarf »

jrapdx3 wrote: post #17

The subject of the article says as much about the politics of science as it is a comment on the science itself. To the extent the findings have been ignored, or perhaps even shunned, is not at all unique. Many important advances in medicine had a notoriously difficult time being accepted, as an example, the idea that bacterial infection was the cause of stomach ulcers had been around for decades before gaining tracti…

> the idea that bacterial infection was the cause of stomach ulcers

I would add to that "most", had a stomach ulcer, no bacteria detected in multiple tests.

Turned out my stomach produces excess acid when I'm under stress.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#72

Post by erikb »

This headline sounds really interesting. But if you think about it more you find that this is true for a lot of papers. I guess there are quite a few papers that never make it to being published, because it's hard work and the competition is tough. And each one of these might have had an impact if it had succeeded in getting published.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#73

Post by gobbo »

This article leaves out or does not stress enough some important information: _How long was the experiment conducted for? _How many people have been monitored after the experiment? _Did the people go back to the previous diet, once the experiment was over?

To the first question, one can find hidden in the article: "Willett faulted the experiment because many of the patients were on the special diets for relatively brief periods - many were being released from the mental institutions. But about a quarter of the patients remained on the diet for a year or longer".

If people stayed on this diet for a year or so max of their 65+ years of life, this data seems utterly non-relevant to support either thesis. It is fundamental to know if the people (and how many) continued with the new diet for a sizable portion of their life. In any case the results should at least not include people that have been on the diet for just a couple of months.

It is hard to believe that a diet of low fat for just a random year in somebody's life (~1.5% of life span) would make a big difference against the remaining 98% of life spent eating fat. The question whether a low fat diet is better than a high fat one is very intriguing, but this data, as presented in the article, seem inconclusive.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#75

Post by jrapdx3 »

dublinclontarf wrote: post #71
jrapdx3 wrote: post #17

The subject of the article says as much about the politics of science as it is a comment on the science itself. To the extent the findings have been ignored, or perhaps even shunned, is not at all unique. Many important advances in medicine had a notoriously difficult time being accepted, as an example, the idea that bacterial infection was the cause of stomach ulcers had been around for decades before gaining tracti…

> the idea that bacterial infection was the cause of stomach ulcers I would add to that "most", had a stomach ulcer, no bacteria detected in multiple tests. Turned out my stomach produces excess acid when I'm under stress.

You are right, better to have said bacterial infection is a cause of ulcers. Actually infection instigates around 2/3 of ulcer cases. Other contributing factors include NSAIDs (like ibuprofen), stress, and certain endocrine conditions or tumors. Working out diagnosis and treatment can be complicated, so having a handle on your condition is a good thing.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#76

Post by douche »

seizethecheese wrote: post #22
jrapdx3 wrote: post #17

The subject of the article says as much about the politics of science as it is a comment on the science itself. To the extent the findings have been ignored, or perhaps even shunned, is not at all unique. Many important advances in medicine had a notoriously difficult time being accepted, as an example, the idea that bacterial infection was the cause of stomach ulcers had been around for decades before gaining tracti…

Thanks for the insightful comment. What would be a good substitute oil for cooking?

Bacon grease

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#77

Post by thaumasiotes »

enibundo wrote: post #74

Is it this difficult to know what to eat Americans? Just don't eat processed food and don't abuse with only one type of food ffs.

This is a case where I'm inclined not to blame the Americans. The modal human eats a more or less traditional diet that coevolved with them over a very long period. Unsurprisingly, Japanese in Japan do pretty well on their diet, Greeks in Greece do pretty well (though not as well) on theirs, and so forth. Japanese in the US show pathologies like obesity at elevated levels compared to the ones in Japan. The American diet is a pretty recent phenomenon and hasn't settled.

The quest for the one perfect diet which is optimally healthy for everyone in the world, though, is obviously misguided.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#78

Post by pbhjpbhj »

gobbo wrote: post #73

This article leaves out or does not stress enough some important information: _How long was the experiment conducted for? _How many people have been monitored after the experiment? _Did the people go back to the previous diet, once the experiment was over? To the first question, one can find hidden in the article: "Willett faulted the experiment because many of the patients were on the special diets for relatively br…

>It is hard to believe that a diet of low fat for just a random year in somebody's life (~1.5% of life span) would make a big difference against the remaining 98% of life spent eating fat. //

It's not inconceivable though: I've friends who have lactose intolerance who once they have stayed off lactose for a while can then consume it relatively normally so long as they maintain a relatively low dose.

It seems possible that the body could "clean" itself during a period of low fat dieting sufficient that it can handle a normal Western diet for the rest of a normal Western life-span? If a mechanism for fat storing that was detrimental was related to one's age when the fat was deposited that might also explain how a short period of dieting would be beneficial over a lifetime.

Most everything [I've read] in dietary science seems inconclusive.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#79

Post by saalweachter »

Avshalom wrote: post #55
narrator wrote: post #31

The context of the early 70s was that "The Limits To Growth" and "The Population Bomb" had just been published and there was a real concern in the air that the world was going to run out of food quickly unless something drastic was done. I think this created a strong confirmation bias that favored any scientific validation of vegetarianism as good news. Saturated fat being the main component of meats that is not in v…

Of course on the other hand: wouldn't it be amazingly convenient for the meat industry if just as a massive drought was bringing forth a renewed wave of criticism against the wastefulness of alfalfa for feed; with factory farms being heavily criticized as horrifying cruel; antibiotics in animal feed being blamed for bringing about the MRSApocalypse; hormones being blamed for... well just about anything; along with sh…

I suspect there is a certain amount of "meat solidarity", but meat itself is not really a monolithic thing.

Pork is roughly twice as efficient as beef to produce, and poultry three times as efficient. Replacing beef in your diet with other meats is already a substantial improvement without the hassle of going full-vegan.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#80

Post by pbhjpbhj »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #77
enibundo wrote: post #74

Is it this difficult to know what to eat Americans? Just don't eat processed food and don't abuse with only one type of food ffs.

This is a case where I'm inclined not to blame the Americans. The modal human eats a more or less traditional diet that coevolved with them over a very long period. Unsurprisingly, Japanese in Japan do pretty well on their diet, Greeks in Greece do pretty well (though not as well) on theirs, and so forth. Japanese in the US show pathologies like obesity at elevated levels compared to the ones in Japan. The American d…

>Japanese in the US show pathologies like obesity at elevated levels compared to the ones in Japan. The American diet is a pretty recent phenomenon and hasn't settled. //

Are countries with a higher degree of capitalism in general or a greater profit motive in their food production more likely to have diet that leads to poor outcomes?

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