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40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

washingtonpost.com

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Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#31

Post by narrator »

The context of the early 70s was that "The Limits To Growth" and "The Population Bomb" had just been published and there was a real concern in the air that the world was going to run out of food quickly unless something drastic was done. I think this created a strong confirmation bias that favored any scientific validation of vegetarianism as good news. Saturated fat being the main component of meats that is not in vegetables, and carbohydrates being the main components of vegetables that are not in meats, the confirmation bias was decidedly pro-carbohydrates, anti-saturated fats.

IMHO, whenever you get people saying "Wouldn't it be wonderful if the science said because it would help with " you get one of these situations.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#32

Post by Houshalter »

foota wrote: post #13
gjm11 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what point (if any) gwern is making here but, e.g., Ancel Keys died in 2004 at the age of 100. So, indeed, no wonder he's deceased: he would have had to be staggeringly old to still be alive now. [EDITED to add:] On the face of it, the most obvious reading of gwern's comment is (it seems to me) something like "ha ha, of course they're dead, because they had stupid theories about diet and health so we sho…

I read it as a joke about the fact that the study is so old they're almost certainly dead (coming from a 21yo 40 years seems like a long time so that could be why I read it differently?)

I read it as a reference to the old idea that "science progresses one funeral at a time". That the information was suppressed because it didn't go along with their opinions, and had to wait until now to come out.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#33

Post by prestonbriggs »

seizethecheese wrote: post #22
jrapdx3 wrote: post #17

The subject of the article says as much about the politics of science as it is a comment on the science itself. To the extent the findings have been ignored, or perhaps even shunned, is not at all unique. Many important advances in medicine had a notoriously difficult time being accepted, as an example, the idea that bacterial infection was the cause of stomach ulcers had been around for decades before gaining tracti…

Thanks for the insightful comment. What would be a good substitute oil for cooking?

My wife cooks entirely w/o oil. Lots of vegetable broth. As a bonus, makes washing up a lot easier.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#34

Post by jrapdx3 »

jrapdx3 wrote: post #17

The subject of the article says as much about the politics of science as it is a comment on the science itself. To the extent the findings have been ignored, or perhaps even shunned, is not at all unique. Many important advances in medicine had a notoriously difficult time being accepted, as an example, the idea that bacterial infection was the cause of stomach ulcers had been around for decades before gaining tracti…

Here are a few references. These are recent open access articles covering the topic fairly broadly. Tons more out there, it's a big and important area of research.

Artemis P. Simopoulos, An Increase in the Omega-6/Omega-3 Fatty Acid Ratio Increases the Risk for Obesity http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4808858/

Tani S1, Takahashi A, Nagao K, Hirayama A, Association of Fish Consumption-Derived Ratio of Serum n-3 to n-6 Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids and Cardiovascular Risk With the Prevalence of Coronary Artery Disease. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25902881

Khan SA, Ali A, Khan SA, Zahran SA, Damanhouri G, Azhar E, Qadri I, Unraveling the complex relationship triad between lipids, obesity, and inflammation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25258478

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#35

Post by Retric »

pc2g4d wrote: post #4
jinushaun wrote: post #3

To me, the problem is not scientific studies, but mainstream reporting of scientific studies that turn into popular fads and trends. Science doesn't deal in absolutes, but society does. This is true for dietary fat, autism, gluten, paleo, salt, etc.

I think you give "science" too much credit. "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" and all that. In an abstract sense, yes, everything in science is subject to criticism and reevaluation. But in a human sense, entire fields are dominated for decades by strong personalities whose theories aren't necessarily stronger but have greater social support. I present to you Noam Chomsky re: linguistics as a prime example. Surel…

Dominate theories are not necessarily accepted as consensus. It can be hard to notice outside of the field but Noam Chomsky had far less support inside linguistics than you might think.

It's a classic case where it's hard to pickup most people saying 'I have no idea', when there is a lot of talk about theory x.

PS: The counter argument was simply children get feedback while learning a language. Mute children have a much harder time picking up their native language so it's not a passive process.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#36

Post by maxerickson »

eveningcoffee wrote: post #26
seizethecheese wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the insightful comment. What would be a good substitute oil for cooking?

I am not a dietary scientist, but we are using either coconut fat or grape see oil for cooking. The main reason is that these are supposed to produce less cancerogenic compounds after high temperature treatment* and they also do not leave any strong specific taste. Both do not contain significant amount of omega-3 fatty acids, but the cooking oil probably also should not be your main source of fatty acids anyway (usu…

Coconut oil does not appear to have a relatively high smoke point.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#37

Post by epalmer »

narrator wrote: post #31

The context of the early 70s was that "The Limits To Growth" and "The Population Bomb" had just been published and there was a real concern in the air that the world was going to run out of food quickly unless something drastic was done. I think this created a strong confirmation bias that favored any scientific validation of vegetarianism as good news. Saturated fat being the main component of meats that is not in v…

Thanks for this. This seems very plausable. I'm now eating low carb and shuning most vetegable oils. I do use Olive Oil and eat more fish. I use just a little coconut oil. Lost ~28 lbs and have not been sick at all since going ketonic. Still have to lose more weight. I do eat red meat and chicken, turkey. Cheese is a favorite and my bias is I don't want to have to give up cheese.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#38

Post by maxerickson »

seizethecheese wrote: post #22
jrapdx3 wrote: post #17

The subject of the article says as much about the politics of science as it is a comment on the science itself. To the extent the findings have been ignored, or perhaps even shunned, is not at all unique. Many important advances in medicine had a notoriously difficult time being accepted, as an example, the idea that bacterial infection was the cause of stomach ulcers had been around for decades before gaining tracti…

Thanks for the insightful comment. What would be a good substitute oil for cooking?

Canola oil was bred to have a 1:1 ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3. It's low in saturated fat too.

For all the good things people say about the fat composition of olive oil, canola oil is probably better. It also has a more neutral taste. It's all refined though, and a GMO, things which some people don't like.

Re: 40 year old study could have reshaped American diet, was never fully published

#39

Post by eveningcoffee »

gnoway wrote: post #10
zach wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally read it as "oh, no wonder it 'was never fully published' before now, since the lead investigators were the infamous Ancel Keys and a now-deceased collaborator."

Well also, as pointed out elsewhere, Keys championed reduction in saturated fats, etc. to prevent heart disease. If the results of a trial he conducted disputed that idea, that might have harmed his reputation.

It almost feels like a claim that it is safe to put lead into gasoline.
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