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Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

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Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#351

Post by sokoloff »

chris_wot wrote: post #279
chrisyeh wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) We do specifically address the power imbalance between employers and employees. Because managers typically have more power in the relationship, it is critical that managers take the initiative to prove themselves trustworthy. Now that talent mobility has increased so much, employers who continue to treat employees as disposable are going to have a hard time attracting the best talent. This doesn't mean that all co…

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. If I may also respond: 1. That doesn't necessarily follow. In any economy there will always be talent, but the issue here is that you refer to the "best" talent - surely such a scenario you give also implies that once you are no longer the best talent, although you were so at one point, you can be perceived as no longer so and this you can be replaced? There will also alwa…

If your company strategy depends on having the "best" talent, then yes, you should replace former best when they are no longer the best. Think Olympics or professional sports as the canonical example.

If your company strategy can work with the vast majority of talent and where some job/company-specific learning is in play (which is the vast majority of companies), then you would naturally prefer an experienced employee to a rank novice. That gives some power advantage to the incumbent employee over a walk-in applicant.

If your company strategy can use nearly anyone and there is no significant learning on the job, then incumbent employees are competing on fairly equal ground with new applicants and it can become a race to the bottom, but it also requires the lowest amount of investment on the part of the employee.

Your job as a prospective employee is to understand what type of company you're considering joining, and to get yourself in the right place on that spectrum, where right is a function of your abilities, aspirations, and preferences. Some like the battle to be the very best. Some like the idea of a lifetime of learning and stable employment. Others prefer (or have thrust upon them) a job where not too much is demanded of them in terms of job-related learning and development.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#352

Post by morgante »

maus42 wrote: post #350
limelight wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's overwhelmingly a generational thing, not a "white collar" thing. Older white collar workers still want/expect lifetime employment, while young workers of all kinds are more comfortable with labor fluidity. The vast majority of my young friends are uninterested in jobs which would provide lifetime employment. (As am I.) Honestly, it was incredibly risky for HubSpot to hire Lyons and the outcome seems pred…

Sure, it's a generational thing. However, I'm not sure if that's a matte of preference or realism. Our generation knows that "lifetime employment" at a single company does not exist any more. The only way to remain sane is to accept the reality. I'm a student know, and repeating the same summer job search process every spring is stressful. I don't look forward to future with joy, but what alternatives there are?

While true lifetime employment might be extinct, there are still gradations in job security. Your tenure at a large corporation or government job will generally be much longer that a startup. But you don't see people lining up to work in the government.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#353

Post by sokoloff »

chris_wot wrote: post #294
chrisyeh wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two clarifications: When I say "lifetime employment at a single company," I refer to spending one's entire career at a single firm. When I say that employment is a voluntary relationship, I mean that the employer cannot compel an employee to accept a job offer, and that an employee cannot compel an employer to extend one.

You are basically saying that all employment is for contractors with fixed start and end dates and that must be extended! That's not how permanent employment works in many parts of the world, nor is it even desirable.

My experience suggests that those permanent employment policies serve to discourage employment. As a US-based employer, I'm often puzzled/confused by some of the practices around the world. (I'm sure the converse is probably true for EU-based employers considering expanding into the US.)

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#354

Post by sokoloff »

martin1975 wrote: post #259

Programmers are still operating under the delusion that they are so much better (or worse) than the guy working next to them. It is this kind of egotistical thinking that probably gets in the way of them unionizing. You want to give a large caliber a-hole like Bezos the finger while working in his own company? It takes balls to do that - stage a walk out and strike. It takes camaraderie, intimacy and loyalty to a cau…

I don't think it's just the wide observed variance in skill/ability that prevents unionization. It's also the individual differences and the fact that our jobs aren't obviously unsafe nor underpaid.

For me, I don't see the upside in unionizing. I'm very much libertarian and believe in the power of the individual. I'll bargain for myself and make my own choices long before I'll pay someone else to do that on my behalf collectively with a bunch of other people, many of whom I disagree with.

Individual bargaining works very well I think, and from what I saw of the family members in the coal, steel, and railroad unions growing up, those are not the situations that I'd like to spend any time, attention, or money on. It's hard for me to separate the union aspect from "way shittier than programming job" aspect, but seeing my grandpa forced to stay home to support a strike he didn't seem to believe in made an impression on me.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#355

Post by [deleted] »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #203
capote wrote: post #182

Though I do understand most of the criticism this piece is getting in this thread, can we at least agree that all that bullshit about being a star and "graduating" is total bullshit? What a total slap in the face. Culture aside, crying at your desk aside, spare me the extra layer of fake, pointless language to disguise what is happening. I expect professionalism and respect from an employer, and that involves being s…

> can we at least agree that all that bullshit about being a star and "graduating" is total bullshit? What a total slap in the face. Completely agree. If the person is leaving on their own? Sure sounds great! But firing or laying someone off? Seems borderline psychopathic to me.

[deleted]

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#356

Post by sokoloff »

imtringued wrote: post #348
morgante wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions will not improve everyone's earnings. They will compress the differential, and as someone who likes getting paid more than the average programmer I absolutely would oppose that. Doctors, dentists, and lawyers don't have unions. They have professional associations (which might be a good idea for programmers) but they still negotiate individually.

>likes getting paid more than the average programmer In what way would a union prevent that?

Anything that raises average programming wages significantly is likely to reduce peak programming wages. (Companies are unlikely to just take the increase in wages as a hit to profitability. They're going to shave the peak and put everyone into tighter "bands" than is currently the case and probably dismiss some of the lowest performers [which might be healthy, of course].)

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#357

Post by tjmc »

chris_wot wrote: post #279
chrisyeh wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) We do specifically address the power imbalance between employers and employees. Because managers typically have more power in the relationship, it is critical that managers take the initiative to prove themselves trustworthy. Now that talent mobility has increased so much, employers who continue to treat employees as disposable are going to have a hard time attracting the best talent. This doesn't mean that all co…

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. If I may also respond: 1. That doesn't necessarily follow. In any economy there will always be talent, but the issue here is that you refer to the "best" talent - surely such a scenario you give also implies that once you are no longer the best talent, although you were so at one point, you can be perceived as no longer so and this you can be replaced? There will also alwa…

Unfortunately most Australian employers can easily work around #3 by just employing staff on short fixed term contracts. Then they're under no obligation to renew them.

In theory they have to offer permanent employment after a certain time, but there are lots of ways around that. I worked as a casual staff member at a university here for 8 years and they just shuffled me to a different department when I got close to that point. Didn't bother me as I was both working and studying there at the time but the "casualisation" of staff that want permanent roles is rampant.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#358

Post by ageofwant »

sokoloff wrote: post #356
imtringued wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>likes getting paid more than the average programmer In what way would a union prevent that?

Anything that raises average programming wages significantly is likely to reduce peak programming wages. (Companies are unlikely to just take the increase in wages as a hit to profitability. They're going to shave the peak and put everyone into tighter "bands" than is currently the case and probably dismiss some of the lowest performers [which might be healthy, of course].)

As I'm a "average programmer" I'll probably benefit from a significant raise is average programmer renumeration. As will, by definition, the vast majority of programmers. As a self confessed "peak" programmer you believe you have little need of a union to further your cause and you may very well be right. This does not change the fact that the majority of the fraternity will.

The fact that you may be adversely effected does not concern me. I'm sure you are more than capable of holding your own. As a "peak performer" I'd fully expect you to raise to the challenge and do even greater things.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#359

Post by Spooky23 »

ec109685 wrote: post #230
T2_t2 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Dan Lyons misrepresents your ideas, but rather I think more fundamentally he doesn't share your vocabulary, worldview nor expectations. The reverse is also true, and your arguments in return don't use worldview or definitions he would understand nor recognise. The modern world seems to be a constant case of vocabulary misunderstanding, where we all say "widget", and I mean thing and you mean "an element…

Do you have a cite for being the 70's paradigm: "the business will employ you no matter what you do or how bad you are" - the classic 1970s Union paradigm No Union protects employees no matter how bad they are.

Have you ever worked in a union shop?

Unions are democratic institutions that rely on precedent, so it's really essential to defend employees all of the time.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#360

Post by gmantom »

pascalo wrote: post #21
gmantom wrote: post #13

Look startups aren't perfect. You will most certainly work harder than at a large established firm. Your life balance will be no where near as good as at a large firm. But why are you electing to work at a startup? 1) You are getting some options and have the possibility of a big upside which does not exist at a large firm. 2) You want more responsibility and you will certainly get it in the form of wearing many hats…

Would you say companies the size of Amazon, Netflix and HubSpot still fall into that bucket? To me they are large tech companies that have kept some sort of startup canon in place, and not in a good way.

That's very fair. I can't speak about Amazon, because I've never worked there. You're right that some companies are hanging not on to that startup canon, at least from the outside it seems that way, even after they are large and it's not just Amazon but Amazon is probably the biggest.

My comment generally holds true though that startups have tradeoffs to large corporations. If large corps are trying to take advantage of that then we, as top talent, need to stay away from them so they fail and this trend can go away.

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