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Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

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Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#341

Post by morgante »

ryandamm wrote: post #183
aleyan wrote: post #80

Issues raised in the article aside, I am here to argue semantics. The article used the word start-up 3 times, plus one more in the title of his book. The company he worked for however, HubSpot is 10 years old and public and thus by definition is not a startup. Other two companies mentioned, Amazon and Netflix are both over a decade old and public and thus are not start-ups by any stretch of the imagination. Startups…

I have a related quibble: a lot of companies are called 'tech companies' when, in fact, they're consumers of technology, not producers of them. If your primary innovation is business model, and all the interesting tech you end up working on is purely a result of your scale, well, you're not a tech company. You're a company. Those companies are probably great (or at least, so far as great == profitable/growing), but c…

I think it's even simpler: tech companies overwhelmingly create technology. So the majority of their employees should be developers or other people involved in actually creating technology. Uber and AirBnB are tech companies: they're primary innovation was creating technology and the majority of their business expenses are in creating technology.

I don't know how anyone gets away with calling call center employees "tech workers." It's a farcical trend and a way to make headlines ("Tech workers making only $30k a year"). They're not more tech workers than a developer at a news company is a journalist.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#342

Post by humanrebar »

mc32 wrote: post #268
chrisyeh wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) We do specifically address the power imbalance between employers and employees. Because managers typically have more power in the relationship, it is critical that managers take the initiative to prove themselves trustworthy. Now that talent mobility has increased so much, employers who continue to treat employees as disposable are going to have a hard time attracting the best talent. This doesn't mean that all co…

Thinking beyond the best or the top ten percent should change some of the perspective. Not all workers will be of "the best". Most will be middlings. It's the middlings who need to worry about power imbalances and who take jobs with lousy bosses and put up with lousy coworkers. True, top talent has less to worry about since any setback in employment is easily reversible. Many (most) don't have that luxury. These are…

> It's the middlings who need to worry about power imbalances and who take jobs with lousy bosses and put up with lousy coworkers.

In my experience, many people (I don't like the word 'middlings' for some reason) think job to job instead of about a career. And then they have job problems.

Likewise, many people think paycheck to paycheck instead about longer-term finances. And then they have cash flow problems.

Isn't part of the solution to get employers and employees to talk to each other in terms of career trajectory, professional development, and skills marketability?

Couldn't part of the power imbalance be solved by getting employers to think again about giving out dead end jobs in dying industries? Right now we put the onus on the employee to recognize the problem and demand a better deal. Assuming automated freight trucks become a thing, shouldn't trucking companies say, "Hey, work for us. We'll have you trained for better jobs by the time the truck drives itself!"?

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#343

Post by ageofwant »

morgante wrote: post #338
ageofwant wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greetings comrade. I wholeheartedly concur. Its been a source of great confusion to me why otherwise intelligent and open-minded people are so steadfastly opposed to the one thing that can improve their earnings potential dramatically. I have observed a strong shift to the "left" in the last few years though, so I won't be surprised if this happens soon. I also expect that given the resources and capability inherent…

Unions will not improve everyone's earnings. They will compress the differential, and as someone who likes getting paid more than the average programmer I absolutely would oppose that. Doctors, dentists, and lawyers don't have unions. They have professional associations (which might be a good idea for programmers) but they still negotiate individually.

It is perfectly permissible to be a member of a union and negotiate as a individual, the one does not automatically preclude the other.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#344

Post by pascalo »

UK-AL wrote: post #330
pascalo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To provide an outside US perspective, it's not that easy to fire someone in Germany, the UK or Australia. Once you're past the probation period, you'd probably have to get one or multiple sorts of negative reviews and written warnings from HR or your superiors before being let go, otherwise you'd have ground to sue for unfair dismissal. That, or you'd be given a redundancy package.

There's no such thing as probation period in law. It's a company specific thing. The laws the same if your own a probation period or not.

In German law there is. In Australia unfair dismissal can only be claimed after 6 months of employment. Not really sure about the UK, but I am fairly sure it's not just cut throat firing like in the US, and you can claim unfair dismissal.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#345

Post by DanBC »

pascalo wrote: post #344
UK-AL wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no such thing as probation period in law. It's a company specific thing. The laws the same if your own a probation period or not.

In German law there is. In Australia unfair dismissal can only be claimed after 6 months of employment. Not really sure about the UK, but I am fairly sure it's not just cut throat firing like in the US, and you can claim unfair dismissal.

UK you can claim unfair dismissal after 2 years, unless there's Equalities Act stuff happening.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#346

Post by _0w8t »

mc32 wrote: post #268
chrisyeh wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) We do specifically address the power imbalance between employers and employees. Because managers typically have more power in the relationship, it is critical that managers take the initiative to prove themselves trustworthy. Now that talent mobility has increased so much, employers who continue to treat employees as disposable are going to have a hard time attracting the best talent. This doesn't mean that all co…

Thinking beyond the best or the top ten percent should change some of the perspective. Not all workers will be of "the best". Most will be middlings. It's the middlings who need to worry about power imbalances and who take jobs with lousy bosses and put up with lousy coworkers. True, top talent has less to worry about since any setback in employment is easily reversible. Many (most) don't have that luxury. These are…

When social safety net works, then people without top skills can still work away from bad employers. They may even try to start own business as they know that if they fail, the landing will be soft.

The situation when a person has to accept intimidation or even abuse at work is not much different from slavery.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#347

Post by reuven »

I read this article and said, "Yup, that sounds like a lot of startups I've worked with."

I should say with, and not for. I've been a freelancer for 20 years, and while I love to help my clients succeed, and I definitely work too many hours, I don't have someone standing over me, expecting that I'll work 60-hour weeks, be around for 7 p.m. meetings, or explicitly tell me that my needs are secondary to the company's needs.

Startup employees -- and hi-tech employees in general -- are expected to work long hours, and to put family and friends aside, all in the name of... well, what? Sometimes it's lots of money, but too often it's because this is what they're expected to do in so many companies.

It's true that tech companies are (and have always been) desperate for good talent, and people who are great can often get great salaries and benefits. But it's rare for a company to say, "Yeah, we'll pay you tons, give us access to our cafeteria, and offer on-site massages, and you don't have to be here more than 40 hours per week."

I'm OK with asking employees to pitch in before a deadline, or in an emergency. But that should mean a few days every few months, not a few months out of each year.

And those descriptions of "graduation" e-mails that Lyons mentions in the article just gave me the chills.

Something is wrong if these are the expectations at lots of high-tech companies, and I have to wonder if Lyons is right, that we're looking at some very well-paid people who have little or no power, and move to a new job every year or two not just to get more money, but to get a bit more control over their own schedules, or some better work-life balance.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#348

Post by imtringued »

morgante wrote: post #338
ageofwant wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greetings comrade. I wholeheartedly concur. Its been a source of great confusion to me why otherwise intelligent and open-minded people are so steadfastly opposed to the one thing that can improve their earnings potential dramatically. I have observed a strong shift to the "left" in the last few years though, so I won't be surprised if this happens soon. I also expect that given the resources and capability inherent…

Unions will not improve everyone's earnings. They will compress the differential, and as someone who likes getting paid more than the average programmer I absolutely would oppose that. Doctors, dentists, and lawyers don't have unions. They have professional associations (which might be a good idea for programmers) but they still negotiate individually.

>likes getting paid more than the average programmer

In what way would a union prevent that?

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#349

Post by Doctor_Fegg »

neurobuddha wrote: post #63

I have to wonder how many anti-Lyons comments in this thread are HubSpot employees in stealth mode. Doesn't HubSpot do 'Sentiment Analysis' and that sort of stuff?

You really don't have to look far to find people who don't rate Dan Lyons. Daring Fireball is one pretty obvious example.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#350

Post by maus42 »

limelight wrote: post #329
incepted wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the point we make in the book is that few employees expect or want lifetime employment at a single company Any citation about this claim? Because in my experience, it's completely incorrect. Outside of the US, lifetime employment is a heavily coveted goal, because economies outside of the US are in a terrible shape overall with unemployment rate routinely above 10%. Inside the US, except for white collar workers in…

I think it's overwhelmingly a generational thing, not a "white collar" thing. Older white collar workers still want/expect lifetime employment, while young workers of all kinds are more comfortable with labor fluidity. The vast majority of my young friends are uninterested in jobs which would provide lifetime employment. (As am I.) Honestly, it was incredibly risky for HubSpot to hire Lyons and the outcome seems pred…

Sure, it's a generational thing.

However, I'm not sure if that's a matte of preference or realism. Our generation knows that "lifetime employment" at a single company does not exist any more. The only way to remain sane is to accept the reality.

I'm a student know, and repeating the same summer job search process every spring is stressful. I don't look forward to future with joy, but what alternatives there are?

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