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Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#131

Post by WalterBright »

hackuser wrote: post #124
WalterBright wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father told me that the reason most people don't recognize opportunity is that it comes disguised as hard work. I.e. nobody is going to get lucky by watching TV.

With due respect to your Dad, the implication that poor people are simply lazy is highly speculative and doesn't seem to match the data, including lack of resources and opportunity around them.

I agree that it isn't necessarily about laziness. As I said elsewhere, it's about working smart more than working hard - but it still involves actively doing something. But I do agree with my dad in that opportunity often goes unrecognized.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#132

Post by WalterBright »

hackuser wrote: post #123
WalterBright wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, looking back on it all, it was mostly luck. I wish I could say that I had some part in it, but really, I didn't. Don't discount the value of the choices you made, like 1 (choosing to graduate), 2 (making good choices of friends), 4 (there's a lot one can do to improve attractiveness, like standing up straight, haircut, choosing clothes, demeanor, etc.), 5 (choosing friends), 6 (choosing to pay attention to a m…

I don't know if I would want my life to depend on children and teenagers making good choices.

I prefer my life to be about choices I make, rather than being a hapless victim of vicissitude. I don't understand wanting to be such a victim.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#133

Post by hackuser »

WalterBright wrote: post #130
hackuser wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in America people mostly make their own luck. That's clearly not the case. Off the top of my head, success depends heavily on the neighborhood and family you are born into. Are your parents divorced, in prison, are they alchoholics, do they teach you values and education, do they abuse you, do they rear you at all, can they afford food, electricity, or college? Does the school in your zip code have books the classr…

I expected to be downvoted with that comment. It doesn't fit the usual narrative. But I have some karma to burn, and feel like burning it in a good cause :-) The fact is, if you are able-bodied, you do have choices. I won't repeat what I've posted elsewhere in this thread. I'll just add that in my life I've noticed a consistent pattern. People who take responsibility for their choices do much better than people who a…

Walter - I've given you some of that karma by upvoting you many times. It seems like you are the one relying on a 'usual narrative', that you just have to work hard.

How do you square that with the data, the outcomes that wealthy kids are so much more successful? How about that they get into college at such higher rates at age 18? Why would poor kids be any lazier than wealthy ones?

> And American today has more opportunities for more people than anywhere at anytime in history.

Not to nitpick, but at least some resesarch says that social mobility is higher now in Europe. I also suspect it was higher in the U.S. in the 90's, when there were more social services and education (not to mention health care and housing) cost much less.

> There's a reason why America has so many illegal immigrants and so many more that want to come here.

Net illegal immigration with Mexico is now negative, at least last I saw (that is, more are returning than entering the U.S.).

Also, illegal immigrants often come from places that are much poorer than the United States.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#134

Post by hackuser »

WalterBright wrote: post #132
hackuser wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if I would want my life to depend on children and teenagers making good choices.

I prefer my life to be about choices I make, rather than being a hapless victim of vicissitude. I don't understand wanting to be such a victim.

I prefer that, and you brought up the word "victim"; I don't see anyone here who advocates that.

However, it doesn't solve the problem that it's not realistic to rely on children and teens to make good decisions. That's what parents are for.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#135

Post by josh_carterPDX »

hackuser wrote: post #128
josh_carterPDX wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, I think it has to do with their up bringing. If they were raised to have everything handed to them it's easy for them to give up when faced with adversity. I wasn't raised in a home of wealth, but I certainly saw kids growing up who did and could see their attitude towards things were certainly different than my own. If you've never had to struggle, how do you know how to handle it when you are struggl…

It's interesting that people are careful with stereotypes and analysis of poor kids, but have no problem using them for wealthy kids. Kids born into wealth, at least moderate wealth, are much more likely to be successful than kids born into poverty, so it seems they figure out that struggle thing eventually.

I don't disagree with that, nor was it my point. I just think that people that know what struggle looks like are more inclined to know how to handle it when it occurs.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#136

Post by WalterBright »

hackuser wrote: post #134
WalterBright wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer my life to be about choices I make, rather than being a hapless victim of vicissitude. I don't understand wanting to be such a victim.

I prefer that, and you brought up the word "victim"; I don't see anyone here who advocates that. However, it doesn't solve the problem that it's not realistic to rely on children and teens to make good decisions. That's what parents are for.

If your life is controlled by fate, luck, and/or other people, that makes you a victim.

I agree that children and teens often make poor decisions. It's why the criminal justice system, for example, should be much more forgiving of them. (I know a top developer who told me he stole cars as a teen, and was arrested many times over it. He finally realized his life was doomed unless he changed his ways.)

I also remember being a teen, and watching my peers do stupid things. I knew they were being stupid, they were aware that they were f*cking up their life, but they did it anyway. I don't know that you can save people like that, but they aren't victims of fate. It was still their choice.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#137

Post by WalterBright »

hackuser wrote: post #133
WalterBright wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expected to be downvoted with that comment. It doesn't fit the usual narrative. But I have some karma to burn, and feel like burning it in a good cause :-) The fact is, if you are able-bodied, you do have choices. I won't repeat what I've posted elsewhere in this thread. I'll just add that in my life I've noticed a consistent pattern. People who take responsibility for their choices do much better than people who a…

Walter - I've given you some of that karma by upvoting you many times. It seems like you are the one relying on a 'usual narrative', that you just have to work hard. How do you square that with the data, the outcomes that wealthy kids are so much more successful? How about that they get into college at such higher rates at age 18? Why would poor kids be any lazier than wealthy ones? > And American today has more oppo…

> that you just have to work hard.

I've tried to make it very clear in this thread that it is not at all about "just working hard". It's about working smart, i.e. making choices.

To know the truth about a country, check if there are walls around a country to keep people in, or walls to keep people out.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#138

Post by WalterBright »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #126
WalterBright wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of documentaries on TV of rags to riches musicians, actors, etc. It does make it seem straightforward. There aren't so many documentaries on the more mundane and much more likely paths to a better life.

That could be part of the reinforcement. Plus, the celebrity status is fun and makes you matter to many people. Whereas sweating it out in a factory or cubicle for a souless corporation to make others rich doesnt have same appeal.

I worked in a cubicle for 10 years. It's not a bad life, but I wanted more and started my own business.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#139

Post by billmalarky »

whiddershins wrote: post #75

Hidden in this article is the assumption that the 25 year old working at chick-fil-a is beyond saving, so we must try to do better with future generations. That's really sad for me. That guy is still a kid, from where I sit. And he will likely be doing work that bores him to tears for the next 50 years. We should be talking about fixing that. Figuring out a way to send some smart, creative, in poverty, 30 year olds t…

Probably a broken record statement, but what about basic income?

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#140

Post by nickpsecurity »

WalterBright wrote: post #138
nickpsecurity wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be part of the reinforcement. Plus, the celebrity status is fun and makes you matter to many people. Whereas sweating it out in a factory or cubicle for a souless corporation to make others rich doesnt have same appeal.

I worked in a cubicle for 10 years. It's not a bad life, but I wanted more and started my own business.

Exactly. That urge is in most of us. Finding a way to tap it to improve our odds of success I think is one of main takeaways of article.
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