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Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

theatlantic.com

121–130 of 168 posts

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're poor and want to get out you choose interests that make you more wealthy. You choose majors in college that make you more money with better financial security. The starving artist routine is nearly entirely played out by middle to upper middle class people.

Heck no on thd last part. There's tons of poor and working class people that think they'll get rich with music or something. They get reinforcement from the media and pop artists themselves that brag about getting richer than everyone with just a song or two. I run into them all the time in my area.

> There's tons of poor and working class people that think they'll get rich with music or something

Maybe a major difference is that if you try that path and you are poor, you're out of options. If you try it and you are wealthy, then you change majors in college.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#122
post #48
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd qualify it by saying: "With a lot of hard work, and the legal freedom to move away, anyone can break out of poverty." Staying in the same place (sounds like your grandparents were kick ass people) is pretty much the death sentence and many people, after certain youthful indiscretions may not be permitted to leave the area. Plus, you're white so I'm guessing you've never been detained for "matching the description…

> "With a lot of hard work, and the legal freedom to move away, anyone can break out of poverty." And, in many ways, the purest luck of the draw. If his grandfather didn't have a C64, what happens? Or for me, if my dad doesn't happen to go from selling office furniture to playing with computers when I was very young and I don't happen to then have computers lying around that I'm allowed to play with basically unimped…

Yup. There's plenty of people who want to continue to believe in our broken meritocracy, that the (bowdlerized) Alger bootstraps tales are possible for everyone. They aren't.

There are enormous numbers of people who work very hard and get nowhere. The elements of the "Character Hypothesis" (persistence, determination, self-control / the ability to delay gratification, abstention from substance use, curiosity, conscientiousness, self-confidence, emotional intelligence, good communication skills, a willingness to listen, and grit) are all necessary to escape poverty, but not anywhere sufficient. Pure chance is a huge factor, but acknowledging that fact destroys the entire project in some minds.

There's a reason the Nordics have so much higher social mobility than the US does. They actually work at it:

"In addition to other correlations with negative social outcomes for societies having high inequality, they found a relationship between high social inequality and low social mobility. Of the eight countries studied — Canada, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Germany, the UK and the USA, the USA had both the highest economic inequality and lowest economic mobility. In this and other studies, in fact, the USA has very low mobility at the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder, with mobility increasing slightly as one goes up the ladder. At the top rung of the ladder, however, mobility again decreases.[10]

One study comparing social mobility between developed countries[11][12][13] found that the four countries with the lowest "intergenerational income elasticity", i.e. the highest social mobility, were Denmark, Norway, Finland, and Canada with less than 20% of advantages of having a high income parent passed on to their children"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#123
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, luck. I'm the child of a single mom of 4 who made $7000 / year, and I'm the first of my extended family to graduate college and the first millionaire (my younger brother got to middle class). Luck is the way that I succeeded. 1st, being born with a high IQ helped. But, that clearly wasn't enough since I had the lowest IQ of my family. And, 40% of my gifted class didn't even graduate high school. 2nd, being born…

> But, looking back on it all, it was mostly luck. I wish I could say that I had some part in it, but really, I didn't. Don't discount the value of the choices you made, like 1 (choosing to graduate), 2 (making good choices of friends), 4 (there's a lot one can do to improve attractiveness, like standing up straight, haircut, choosing clothes, demeanor, etc.), 5 (choosing friends), 6 (choosing to pay attention to a m…

I don't know if I would want my life to depend on children and teenagers making good choices.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#124
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's something of a selection problem. The assumption behind this belief set is that they were the select few who could do this. There is an alternative hypothesis that out of the large number of people with poor background who did this, they were the few somewhat randomly selected to succeed. Certainly if you look at their biographies there seems to be a consistent element of right person in right place at righ…

My father told me that the reason most people don't recognize opportunity is that it comes disguised as hard work. I.e. nobody is going to get lucky by watching TV.

With due respect to your Dad, the implication that poor people are simply lazy is highly speculative and doesn't seem to match the data, including lack of resources and opportunity around them.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heck no on thd last part. There's tons of poor and working class people that think they'll get rich with music or something. They get reinforcement from the media and pop artists themselves that brag about getting richer than everyone with just a song or two. I run into them all the time in my area.

> There's tons of poor and working class people that think they'll get rich with music or something Maybe a major difference is that if you try that path and you are poor, you're out of options. If you try it and you are wealthy, then you change majors in college.

Many of these people are intelligent and in college. Others have options but think riches are better. Soms have no options as you said.

Common denominator is they love their art, do it constantly, had a dream of being paid for it, and sonething reinforces that.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heck no on thd last part. There's tons of poor and working class people that think they'll get rich with music or something. They get reinforcement from the media and pop artists themselves that brag about getting richer than everyone with just a song or two. I run into them all the time in my area.

There are tons of documentaries on TV of rags to riches musicians, actors, etc. It does make it seem straightforward. There aren't so many documentaries on the more mundane and much more likely paths to a better life.

That could be part of the reinforcement. Plus, the celebrity status is fun and makes you matter to many people. Whereas sweating it out in a factory or cubicle for a souless corporation to make others rich doesnt have same appeal.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#127

Why do some rich kids fail?

Financial resources are necessary but not at all sufficient to success. Money does not replace parenting, which I think is probably most important. Also, money doesn't change people's natural talents, problems, personalities, etc. We're talking about human beings.

Wealth can help compensate: Maybe if you lack a lot of talent you can still get through college, and that will keep out of minimum wage jobs over the long term.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#128

Why do some rich kids fail?

In my opinion, I think it has to do with their up bringing. If they were raised to have everything handed to them it's easy for them to give up when faced with adversity. I wasn't raised in a home of wealth, but I certainly saw kids growing up who did and could see their attitude towards things were certainly different than my own. If you've never had to struggle, how do you know how to handle it when you are struggl…

It's interesting that people are careful with stereotypes and analysis of poor kids, but have no problem using them for wealthy kids.

Kids born into wealth, at least moderate wealth, are much more likely to be successful than kids born into poverty, so it seems they figure out that struggle thing eventually.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah well, in everything I've done as far back as I can remember when I worked harder I got better results and when I slacked off, I got worse results. I'm thinking how hard you work has a little more to do with success than you give it credit for.

I grew up in poverty. I was poor and I only knew other poor kids until I was 18. When I first started associating with people who grew up middle and upper class I felt like I was in another very foreign world. I have plenty of childhood friends who did the "right" things (some went to college even) and work just as hard as I do but are still poor for various reasons. Working hard doesn't, by default, lead to financia…

I mostly agree with you. Maybe our emphasis is different. I try to look at the issue from a practical standpoint. I can't change where I was born or how much money my parents had or even what I did 5 minutes ago. What I can do is take my present set of circumstances and do what I can do to make things better from this point on. If I lay in bed all day, things aren't going to improve but if I get on this computer and work until 9 o'clock tonight doing what it is that I do then I stand a pretty good chance of having a more prosperous future. Especially if I do that consistently. And it's hard work. I'd rather play video games but I don't. I work.

Regarding the people you grew up with, you say they work as hard as you do. Are you sure about that? And while they may be working hard, how smart are they working? For instance, some went to college, did they get a degree in something that is in high demand where the pay is good? And getting a college degree is only one piece of a good education. How much did they really learn, and consequently, how competitive are they in the job market? Even if they're all in high demand STEM fields, they still have to compete with the thousands of other job seekers after all.

Thinking through the alternatives and making smarter choices is hard work. And that is cumulative. It's kind of like compound interest too. You may not see a big difference from day to day or month to month but given some roll of the dice in circumstances, over the course of years and decades, working hard will almost always make a huge difference.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other countries it may very well be different, but in America people mostly make their own luck. As to working hard, that isn't what counts. It's making the right choices, i.e. working smart. Sure, lots start out with many disadvantages and will have a tougher road. But if you're able-bodied, you do have choices.

> in America people mostly make their own luck. That's clearly not the case. Off the top of my head, success depends heavily on the neighborhood and family you are born into. Are your parents divorced, in prison, are they alchoholics, do they teach you values and education, do they abuse you, do they rear you at all, can they afford food, electricity, or college? Does the school in your zip code have books the classr…

I expected to be downvoted with that comment. It doesn't fit the usual narrative. But I have some karma to burn, and feel like burning it in a good cause :-)

The fact is, if you are able-bodied, you do have choices.

I won't repeat what I've posted elsewhere in this thread. I'll just add that in my life I've noticed a consistent pattern. People who take responsibility for their choices do much better than people who always blame others, fate, whatever.

And American today has more opportunities for more people than anywhere at anytime in history. There's a reason why America has so many illegal immigrants and so many more that want to come here.

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