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Classism in America

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Re: Classism in America

#201

Post by Spooky23 »

Roboprog wrote: post #70
zeveb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

On the other hand, look at how (politically) "those people" behave in aggregate. It might only be a majority of 51%, but clearly there is a sizable portion of people in the (traditionally somewhat sparsely populated) south / center of the country that have quite different values than the the people living along the crowded coasts. Not saying one group is smarter/dumber, just that the difference in values makes it har…

"Those people" are stuck with hopelessly gerrymandered districts and voter suppression.

Re: Classism in America

#202

Post by JetSpiegel »

WalterBright wrote: post #127
henrikschroder wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since no-one else mentioned it yet in this subthread, the phenomenon you are discussing is called a sociolect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolect Basically, since class is culture, and cultures have language, a sociolect describes the language of a class, the ways you have to talk to perform that class. And, naturally, this goes both ways. Someone talking the sociolect of a certain class is seen as performing th…

Back in the middle ages, when the French conquered Britain, the ruling class spoke French and the peasants spoke English. A lot of French words flowed into English as a result. But even today, if people use the words of French origin rather than the old English words, one is regarded as being from the upper class, such as using 'purchase' instead of 'buy'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Frenc.…

That's the reason for the animal/meat duality, right?

Such as pig/pork, beef/cow. The working classes spoke English and dealt with the live animals, the elites just ate them.

Re: Classism in America

#203

Post by henrikschroder »

paulsutter wrote: post #179
henrikschroder wrote: post #89

Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. To me, the separation of economic class and social class is clearer than to the average American. But, the same rules of "invisibility" apply where I'm from. Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to i…

Is it possible that your friends are actually right? How did you gain this ability they lack, to detect precisely who is upper-middle class? You say class isn't about money, and I suppose it shouldn't be. Maybe they think class is about something even worse than money and they don't want any part of it. > Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely…

> Is it possible that your friends are actually right?

In being oblivious to a well-documented phenomenon? That's not very likely. Obliviousness to class is a class marker for middle class. Major values of the middle class are equal opportunity and meritocracy, but existing class structures prevent that, so the middle class stick their heads in the ground and pretend that the upper classes have earned their position at the top, and that the lower classes haven't yet earned a higher position. Members of both the upper and lower classes are well aware that this is a complete farce.

> How did you gain this ability they lack, to detect precisely who is upper-middle class?

By being friends with people from different classes, by being interested and observant, and by having made a small class journey myself. I suggest you read the entire article, it might open your eyes as well.

Re: Classism in America

#204

Post by vacri »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #154
tomc1985 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And country bumpkins despise townies... so everyone hates everyone! Let's just get that out there :)

Sure, but I'd wager that the rural folk would be fine if all the city dwellers disappeared, and that the opposite is not true.

If you want to go back to subsistence farming, sure. The world is filled with places like that. Don't forget that your machinery is largely designed and built in urban environments. Don't forget that your serious medical care comes from urban environments. And, most importantly, don't forget that your customers largely come from urban environments. If the cities went away, so do your clients and your manufacturing and transportation sources. So, back to subsistence living for you...

I grew up in the city and spent summers on my uncle's farm and have seen both sides. Gods, I am tired of this fucking stupid rural vs urban debate. They need each other, and can't exist in a modern world without each other. Move to the countryside and I hear stereotypes about how shit the people in the city are. Move back to the city and hear stereotypes about how shit the people in the country are. Both sets of stereotypes are largely wrong. Likewise, the people whose jobs straddle both urban and rural environments are not the people who use these stereotypes.

Re: Classism in America

#205

Post by adambard »

blakeyrat wrote: post #146
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, same deal. The city dwellers always despise the rural folk they depend on.

The only reason I even live within commuting distance of a large city is because that's where the only good-paying tech jobs are. If I had been a, say, banker or a mechanic or a plumber I'd be able to work in any town in the country, but no, dumb me had to become a computer programmer. If I could participate in this career/industry from a smaller town, you bet your butt I'd do it in a second.

Do you realize that ours is one of the few jobs that can be conducted entirely remotely? Perhaps the remote-work train is destined to derail at some point in the future, but at the moment it's totally possible to find work that lets you live anywhere there's available internet.

Re: Classism in America

#206

Post by xoqem »

placeybordeaux wrote: post #128
hoorayimhelping wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I moved to New York City after living in Florida and North Carolina, I was really surprised at the blatant bigotry here. I've had people respected in this industry for their open mindedness look at me without irony and ask me if it's really as bad as everyone "down there" calling everyone else ... (looks around nervously) ... the N-word. Todd Barry has a great bit on this (language might be offensive to some) ht…

Move to Seattle from Atlanta and quickly got sick of people up here talking about how racist it must be in Atlanta.

This particular point has always been a bit funny to me.

I mean, sure, there are super racist areas in the south. I grew up and lived in mostly rural Alabama for the first 20+ years of my life, and there were some rural areas that were just as terrible as people imagine (cross burnings, open Klan meetings, etc, though that was starting to die down in the last 10 years or so I lived there).

That said, a lot of cities in the south are 30% - 50% black (sometimes more), and people who live in those cities, generally speaking, coexist and interact with many black and white people on a continual basis. It'd be kind of hard to do that and be super racists to the level people imagine the south to be.

Re: Classism in America

#207

Post by Spooky23 »

rnovak wrote: post #131
Roboprog wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, look at how (politically) "those people" behave in aggregate. It might only be a majority of 51%, but clearly there is a sizable portion of people in the (traditionally somewhat sparsely populated) south / center of the country that have quite different values than the the people living along the crowded coasts. Not saying one group is smarter/dumber, just that the difference in values makes it har…

Or, you know, less people vote in the south. In the 2012 Election, southern states all had far less turnout than northern states[1]. Your'e not comparing apples to apples. Saying the entire south in aggregate is "stupider" because of that is plain wrong. http://www.electproject.org/2012g

In many ways, it's true.

Educational outcomes are far worse in the South. Teachers make less, schools are funded more poorly, especially for poor folk.

Re: Classism in America

#209

Post by Spooky23 »

cylinder wrote: post #125
alistairSH wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being rich != upper-class. The first is an economic indicator, the second is a social indicator. As noted in the essay, a plumber can be rich, but will unlikely ever be upper-class. It's also worth noting that the "American Dream" is really just upper-middle-class. Single family house, 2.5 kids and a dog, a new-ish car, and enough disposable income to take an annual vacation. Very few people truly aspire to be upper-…

I really do not think that is the American dream. If it were, people would have demanded better working rights and benefits by now. The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous.

Only for the striving and nouveau riche. Real rich people don't talk about money.

Re: Classism in America

#210

Post by catawbasam »

coldtea wrote: post #181
protomyth wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but we don't control the media. There is not a national news station showing what's important to the middle states.

There is a big one, called FOX.

ummm... not really.

Fox News Network, LLC 1211 Avenue Of The Americas New York, NY 10036

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