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Classism in America

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121–130 of 341 posts

Re: Classism in America

#121
I have a friend I grew up with in Florida that for some reason developed an extremely thick southern accent (I didn't).

He never finished college but started a machining company making parts for the food industry and has done very well making many times the money I have. He is a reasonably smart guy but most people wouldn't guess it talking to him. He sounds like he stepped directly out of the "Deliverance" movie. I didn't realize how bad it was until I saw him a year or two ago and even though he hasn't lived in the south in years, I swear his accent has gotten worse.

Obviously this would be a huge negative in certain professions in certain locations. But it certainly hasn't prevented him from succeeding. In fact, my theory is that it has helped and this is why the accent has gotten stronger.

His employees are mostly machinist/welder types. No way to say sissy to those guys more than speaking properly without accent. So maybe it give his some credibility with that crowd. He also does high dollar contracts for major companies. I bet more than a few times he has been sized up as "dumb hick we are going to take advantage of" and been severely underestimated in negations. Point being, in some times and places appearing a dumb hick might get one further than talking smart. Not in the software industry in California necessarily. There appearing smart might be more important than actually being smart:)

Re: Classism in America

#122
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I was pointing out his logical fallacy in assuming I supported someone because of where I was from. That is a ridiculous assumption, so I made an equally ridiculous one, which he immediately understood. Then we got on really well.

It isn't equally ridiculous. 38.6% of Americans state that they would vote for Donald Trump over Hilary Clinton while 49% state that they would vote for Clinton over Trump. There are only several hundred members of the IRA today (out of 1.8 million people in Northern Ireland) and even fewer of them participate in terrorism. And it's not a logical fallacy. The cab driver clearly didn't mean all Americans support Donal…

[deleted]

Re: Classism in America

#123
post #82

I haven't finished the article yet, but one thing that strikes me is the flamboyant use of vocabulary. Given the topic, I'm not sure whether it's just a peculiarity of the author, an attempt to tailor the reception of the piece with regard to specific audiences, a slight trolling or the reader, or a combination thereof. For example, early on we get "impecunious" and "shibboleths", followed up shortly afterwards with…

You ask in another comment whether you are oblivious. Playfully, I respond "Yes, you are oblivious".

Using "shibboleth" as a shibboleth is itself a shibboleth. She's declaring her bona fides (gratuitous Latin is also a shibboleth, especially if highlighted with italics) as a scholar by demonstrating her ability to use an obscure term correctly, and is being gracious to her audience by assuming their comprehension. Switching to "booboo" is intentional, showing consciousness of register.

My background is somewhat similar to hers, although without the parental guidance. Perhaps as a result, my acculturation was less successful. I think this is a brilliant article, and (having read and enjoyed many of your other comments on this site) I encourage you start from the assumption that the author is fully conscious of the tone of this piece.

Re: Classism in America

#124
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

On the other hand, look at how (politically) "those people" behave in aggregate. It might only be a majority of 51%, but clearly there is a sizable portion of people in the (traditionally somewhat sparsely populated) south / center of the country that have quite different values than the the people living along the crowded coasts. Not saying one group is smarter/dumber, just that the difference in values makes it har…

I've been living in Georgia for 5 years and I can count the amount of times I've seen or heard someone being blatantly racist on my hand.

Re: Classism in America

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a spo…

Being rich != upper-class. The first is an economic indicator, the second is a social indicator. As noted in the essay, a plumber can be rich, but will unlikely ever be upper-class. It's also worth noting that the "American Dream" is really just upper-middle-class. Single family house, 2.5 kids and a dog, a new-ish car, and enough disposable income to take an annual vacation. Very few people truly aspire to be upper-…

I really do not think that is the American dream. If it were, people would have demanded better working rights and benefits by now. The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous.

Re: Classism in America

#126

Social class is astonishingly multidimensional as pointed out in the works of C. Wright Mills (Power Elite), Paul Fussel (Class), Tom Wolfe (The Pump House Gang), etc. In my extended family there are no college professors, but a lot of cops, even a lot of women that are cops. (There are some accountants, but they are forensic accountants ;-) When I get stopped by the cops I don't worry, they like my attitude, they wi…

> Paul Fussel (Class)

> family there are no college professors,

Fussel's Class was sort of OK, but then he went on a wish-fulfillment tripe dump, whereupon he wished college professors like himself to be above it all.

Hardy har har, sure, sure ...

Re: Classism in America

#127
post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

Since no-one else mentioned it yet in this subthread, the phenomenon you are discussing is called a sociolect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolect Basically, since class is culture, and cultures have language, a sociolect describes the language of a class, the ways you have to talk to perform that class. And, naturally, this goes both ways. Someone talking the sociolect of a certain class is seen as performing th…

Back in the middle ages, when the French conquered Britain, the ruling class spoke French and the peasants spoke English. A lot of French words flowed into English as a result.

But even today, if people use the words of French origin rather than the old English words, one is regarded as being from the upper class, such as using 'purchase' instead of 'buy'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Frenc...

Re: Classism in America

#128
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

When I moved to New York City after living in Florida and North Carolina, I was really surprised at the blatant bigotry here. I've had people respected in this industry for their open mindedness look at me without irony and ask me if it's really as bad as everyone "down there" calling everyone else ... (looks around nervously) ... the N-word. Todd Barry has a great bit on this (language might be offensive to some) ht…

Move to Seattle from Atlanta and quickly got sick of people up here talking about how racist it must be in Atlanta.

Re: Classism in America

#129
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget "flyover states", to be uttered in the same tone of disgust as "southerner"!

Yup, same deal. The city dwellers always despise the rural folk they depend on.

I'd say that cuts both ways, as a latte-sipping godless liberal etc.

Re: Classism in America

#130
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.

> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a spo…

> and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make.

Are you sure that isn't an act? People pretend socially acceptable emotions all the time.

If they donated the excess to the IRS (the IRS accepts donations!), I'd be a bit less skeptical.

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