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How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

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Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about how you read your history. You could just as easily point to the amendments expanding voting rights to men without property, then freed slaves, then women, and so on, as an aberration of the founders' original design. I prefer to look at it through the lens of propaganda because it marked the beginning of an era when big changes in culture and society can be reliably made through subtle manipulation in…

What's your constructive result (as opposed to reactive/condemning) of that characterization? To me, propaganda is just a result of mass media, which itself is a result of the longer trend of advancing of communication technology. It's impossible to oppress someone who is not in your "light cone", or to control actions which are below your limit of resolving. In the past things weren't as developed, so it was easier…

Not just mass media.

In Bernays' Propaganda, he describes a new process to sell pianos based on psychoanalysis rather than traditional big-print advertisements.

Essentially, get leading architects to incorporate "music rooms" into their residential designs. Most architects will follow the greats and add music rooms as well. The average homeowner will then walk into the hardware store someday and notice a piano for sale - another Bernays innovation - and think to themselves that the idea to buy a piano was theirs all along. In fact, this all could have been done before the invention of the radio, maybe even the telegraph.

Propaganda itself is neither good nor evil. We must accept that biases and manipulable aspects are a part of all of us. We have to work with them, or ignore them at our peril.

One of Bernays' biggest early arguments pro-propaganda was that if the business and political elite don't figure it out now, someone else down the line will, and they'll use it to take you down. We as a species will have to consider this with every generation until Homo sapiens goes extinct.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet a jury convicted him. This kind of thing is far beyond the comprehension of the common juror. Knowing what I know about computer security and how EASY it is to plant digital evidence without leaving a trace, even from thousands of miles away, I'd have to see video evidence of the defendant downloading the material as it happens before rendering such a verdict, especially if it's going to mean decades in priso…

"Knowing what I know about computer security and how EASY it is to plant digital evidence without leaving a trace." This right here is the conversation which needs to happen around this particular topic. In the security community the topic of forensic discovery of child porn tends to get a hand-wave because child porn. It's there so someone must be guilty. The fact is, it is trivial to plant such evidence on anyone's…

How hard would it be to do a demo for jurors in a courtroom? Simple proof-of-concept getting all of them to connect to a "wifi" network which is a tethered device owned by the lawyer, have them navigate to a regular website, and then inject images for the 2nd go-around to introduce reasonable doubt?

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#114
post #86
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Booted. That's a laugh. They get paid handsomely to leave.

> That's a laugh. They get paid handsomely to leave. Fair enough. I was trying to make an analogy about the leaders being held responsible. If you can think of a better one, I'll change it. That said, I can tell you from personal experience (as seen in a friend) that nearly any corporate executive who gets booted by the board or CEO will be tremendously bruised and hurt by the ordeal. Yeah, it's a punishment most of…

hahaha. I think most people would take those problems any day. Sorry your buddy had his feelings hurt.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#115
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might seem repeative or unwarrented, but to me, it's very clear that the... US is a police state.

More like, it has become like that. Because of complete disregard/disrespect for the US constitution. The constitution had numerous safeguards to restrict abuse of power, but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it.

This is the great fallacy of the theoretical ideal of "rule of law" which is the basis for the idea of a "republic". In physical reality, a law is a piece of paper with words on it. If you sit on it, it's not going to sprout arms and do something about it.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#116
post #55

If, during the entire history of the USA, some FBI agents had never been proven to be corrupt, if judges had never been proven to be corrupt, if evidence had never been proved to be planted by authorities, then maybe, just maybe this would be justified. In the real world, however, this is very, very scary and I consider myself lucky I am not subject to this travesty. Since there does not appear to be any proof that h…

My view of having a mens rea requirement with child porn statues are derided with comments like:

"Congratulations, you're now on an FBI watch list." ( (s)he did agree with me)

Yet if there is no guilty mind, there should be no crime. Frankly possession of CP shouldn't be a crime at all, because it is proof of a crime. Snuff videos aren't illegal. Rape videos (of 18+) aren't illegal. Just horrible videos are that: horrible. They aren't illegal.

And that's not to go after the idea of "I plant CP on your machines..." Strict liability means you lose.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11431128

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#117
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Knowing what I know about computer security and how EASY it is to plant digital evidence without leaving a trace." This right here is the conversation which needs to happen around this particular topic. In the security community the topic of forensic discovery of child porn tends to get a hand-wave because child porn. It's there so someone must be guilty. The fact is, it is trivial to plant such evidence on anyone's…

How hard would it be to do a demo for jurors in a courtroom? Simple proof-of-concept getting all of them to connect to a "wifi" network which is a tethered device owned by the lawyer, have them navigate to a regular website, and then inject images for the 2nd go-around to introduce reasonable doubt?

Trivial. The way to do this in a courtroom is to demonstrate it to the judge and jury by having a reputable forensics expert certify a computer is free from kitty pictures. Then have the judge connect that computer to a "Free WiFi" network to be used for the demo and have them go anywhere. Just start randomly browsing the Internet. Meanwhile, use an intercepting proxy like The Burp Suite, Fiddler 2, or Charles operating transparently (ergo., port 80 is routed through the proxy) and in every HTTP response replace the close HTML tag with a bunch of 1x1 sized images of kittens playing with yarn or something. After about five minutes of browsing, have the forensics expert look at the computer again and nail the judge for looking at kittens. Using an intercepting proxy which allows scripting, the whole thing could even be done in a way which would very much look like the judge was seeking pictures of kitties playing with yarn, right down to search engine queries. The last time I looked, not a lot of search engines implement cross site request forgery (CSRF) tokens for the entry of simple search terms. It's not like setting up a demo like this is even tough. At most it's a couple hours of work for a basic functional demo.

UPDATE: For anyone claiming the forensics expert would find the tampered markup, the no-store cache directive pretty much takes care of that. For all tampered requests, just set the cache directive in the header to no-store and per the requirements of the RFC, the HTML will not be cached to disk. Also, I've encountered very few forensics experts who understand the web enough to grasp what can and cannot be done via the browser.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#118
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jail time for storing a pattern of bits? I will stand up and say that's unjustified. The ridiculous basis of the concept is exactly what causes this screwed up regime with no possible discernment between the crime and being framed for the crime. We see the same patterns arising for the only-slightly-less preposterous idea of criminalizing possession of psychoactive substances - uniformed thugs planting a bit of an ut…

> Jail time for storing a pattern of bits? I will stand up and say that's unjustified. The ridiculous basis of the concept is exactly what causes this screwed up regime with no possible discernment between the crime and being framed for the crime. I'm not going to come down on either side of child porn, but there are plenty of bit patterns where possessing them should result in jail time. For example: Defense secrets…

> there are plenty of bit patterns where possessing them should result in jail time. For example: ... novel ways to enrich fissile materials.[1]

And yet you just pasted a link to a high level overview. I don't see an explicit governmental condonement of the contents of that link - perhaps the edit history contains something "over the line", and you should go turn yourself in?

You still haven't made a case for why possessing such information should be a bona fide crime (as opposed to being evidence of a real crime). You've merely asserted it should be illegal, with only fearmongering innuendo to back it up.

> How exactly would this work if there's no way to punish people for possessing data?

Something tells me most people would stop using Google if it randomly popped up child porn.

> Otherwise you'll just get trolls pasting links to child porn

So where are these trolls now, given they can act with impunity through TOR? In fact, any such trolling is even more lulzful under the current regime, since the website operator is automatically guilty of possession! They're reliant on an informal "I'm a good person who was trying to remove it, please don't rough me up too bad" - which works most of the time if you supplicate to the police, ultimately undermining the rule of law.

> people get framed from time to time

I used the word "frame", but there is actually no such thing under a regime of strict liability. The problem isn't being framed, it's the ridiculousness of strict-liability non-mens-rea possession, especially of something that can be so easily obtained. The threat isn't just cops, it's anyone who decides to make you a criminal!

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#119
post #46
post #44

To be honest, nothing about this seems particularly bad. It seems like circumstantially there was some evidence that he may have been a spy, the government executed a FISA warrant on the basis of that belief, and then found evidence of child porn. I'm not generally a fan of secret warrants or broad search and seizure powers, but this really doesn't strike me as a particularly bad case. This seems, by and large, like…

I'm not super alarmed by this case, but the precedent is disquieting. Here it seems like FISA was used to get a secret warrant to build a counterespionage case; the warrant was targeted and specific. There's some unpleasant strong-arm tactics at play, but nothing out of the ordinary (in particular: you can definitely be the subject of a warrant for which the search more or less exonerates you, but be implicated in a…

I think the conclusion to draw here is that there is no line between LE investigating terrorism and law enforcement investigating everything else. It is not possible to give LE/IC powers that they may use against terrorism and espionage and only that. The patriot act was billed as a set of effective counter-terrorism tools and yet now years later is almost never used for terrorism, primarily used to fight the unpopular and more controversial drug war. FISA and NSA wiretaps are supposedly about espionage and terrorism and yet LE is managing to find a way to use it for everything -- whether it's lying to judges in the form of parallel construction or (even earnestly) stumbling upon major crimes in the course of their investigations. I agree with you that while this particular investigation does not so much worry me (so long as the pornography charges are real and not planted/fabricated), the expansion of the scope of these 'terrorism/espionage' investigations so that investigators conveniently happen to stumble upon crimes is a very worrying prospect.

Powers are powers, and if you put them in the hands of the people with the job 'get as many convictions as possible with the powers you have', well, they'll end up being used, even if they have a label that says 'for terrorism only! Promise!'

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#120
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you get to the money shot: "During his initial appearance in a federal courthouse in Santa Ana, Calif., the prosecutors indicated a willingness to reduce or drop the child pornography charges if he would tell them about the C-17, said Sara Naheedy, Gartenlaub’s attorney at the time." No evidence of downloading the porn. No evidence of viewing the porn. The only way, according to their own experts, is if someone…

> "During his initial appearance in a federal courthouse in Santa Ana, Calif., the prosecutors indicated a willingness to reduce or drop the child pornography charges if he would tell them about the C-17, said Sara Naheedy, Gartenlaub’s attorney at the time." While that does sound damning in a certain light, it's also consistent with their primary mission, which is to counter espionage. I would hope that the FBI woul…

The thing is, they also had no evidence of his even having viewed the files, which means that the last access time was unset. Building a system to reset the access time would be pretty involved; more involved, imo, than simply hiding/encrypting a partition.
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