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My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

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Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#381

Post by kdamken »

ryandrake wrote: post #362
cookiecaper wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier said than done, especially when you have children.

Or student loans, or alimony obligations, or sick parents to house and take care of, or any number of legitimate reasons why normal people don't tend to save 50% of their income. My guess is the "ISO Standard Ideal Saver" whose entire income is disposable, has perfect health, no dependents, no hobbies, no debt or other obligations, etc. is the exception, not the rule.

Obviously you may not always be in a position to follow this exactly, but regardless of who you are it's a solid plan to aspire to.

Even if you can only save $100 a month. Or if you can avoid using a credit card to buy things you don't really need, like a new tv to replace your old one that works fine.

The average person who is not currently dealing with a significant life crisis could follow some of this, but often chooses not to, either due to not knowing any better or lack of self control.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#382

Post by kdamken »

cookiecaper wrote: post #361
mordocai wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My spouse doesn't work. I'm nearly 25 and on/above target on my 401k savings and am slowly gaining money in regular savings accounts too. I made some bad decisions with debt a few years ago or I'd be even farther ahead. I live in Missouri though, which has pretty low cost of living.

I appreciate your intention, but I don't think you can really lecture anyone on retirement savings when you're in your 20s. I'm in my 20s myself and wouldn't do it. Check back in 30 years -- maybe you'll have gotten lucky and not had any major financial drains, or maybe you won't've. People in my family had hundreds of ks saved up for retirement and have lost it all in their 50s. Now they're in their 60s and have no…

Just out of curiosity, what happened to them? Besides significant medical or legal expenses, it's hard for me to picture.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#383

Post by fezz »

Zelmor wrote: post #24

He would have been unhappy with the other choice as well, because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on. I would advise everyone to read The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536 You chose one option out of many, and the others may no longer be a possibility. However, the writer's unhappiness does not spawn from his inability to be successful at what he does,…

There are no guarantees that any path you take will be the right path for you by any metric, financial or otherwise.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#384

Post by freyr »

Chris2048 wrote: post #116
Zelmor wrote: post #24

He would have been unhappy with the other choice as well, because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on. I would advise everyone to read The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536 You chose one option out of many, and the others may no longer be a possibility. However, the writer's unhappiness does not spawn from his inability to be successful at what he does,…

He could of gone into management/leadership, and failed miserably. The cherry-picked success stories don't mean success is more likely. If he had gone into leadership, he might now be looking at examples such a notch, who got rich from dev work without becoming a 'manager' - at the same time indie dev startups are very competitive. I guess you have to balance risk and reward. If you focus on the best examples of an o…

> If he had gone into leadership, he might now be looking at examples such a notch, who got rich from dev work without becoming a 'manager'

A well-paid manager saying, "But I could have made more developing Minecraft!" might as well complain, "But I could have made more if I won the lottery!"

If high compensation is the goal, being a manager is simply a much more straightforward and reliable path than being a programmer.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#385

Post by lifeisstillgood »

I started coding $LONGYEARS ago, and then took the management path cause I wanted to y'know, get paid. After five years as a CTO I finally realised I was coding maybe once or twice a week and gave it up, went contracting and while I know "leadership" basically is needed if you are going to have more effect than just your efforts, I only want to do that now for my own product company - not someone else's.

So contracting till I finally make the full time leap.

In short: you can go back.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#386

Post by ArkyBeagle »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #291
exelius wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just have to say this: So typically american. The attitude presented in the article is indeed typically American -- but not for the reason I think you intended. The quintessential American quality is the belief that every person has the right to control their own destiny. Fuck, it's right there in the first sentence of the first document declaring this country's independence. Americans are often seen as greedy re…

Like you, I don't think the author of the blog post wanted money or power for their own sake. Relevant to your final paragraph: People Want Power Because They Want Autonomy [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340137

But gaining power means losing autonomy. It means more interdependence to lay off risk.

True autonomy is its own discipline.

The problem with gaining power is that you now have to steer into the maelstrom of human foibles for a living. "The Turks pay me a golden treasure, yet I am poor! Because I am a river to my people! " - Auda abu Tayi in "Lawrence of Arabia".

No, people pursue power for status, not for autonomy.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#387

Post by exelius »

pink_dinner wrote: post #324
exelius wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just have to say this: So typically american. The attitude presented in the article is indeed typically American -- but not for the reason I think you intended. The quintessential American quality is the belief that every person has the right to control their own destiny. Fuck, it's right there in the first sentence of the first document declaring this country's independence. Americans are often seen as greedy re…

"The quintessential American quality is the belief that every person has the right to control their own destiny." So you don't think you have this right? I believe you have the right of opportunity, but not of outcome. I learned what this guy learned pretty early on: If you are an employee (developer or not), you will be paid to do things you are against and people less intelligent and experienced than you will be ma…

> So you don't think you have this right? I believe you have the right of opportunity, but not of outcome.

I do think I have this right; as an American it is the #1 thing that makes me an American. It's why we ignore the rules we don't like. It's why we lust for power and for money, lest some other person beat us to the punch and have power over us.

And while no rational person thinks they can control every factor that goes into their own outcome, we at least want to have some influence. If you're an engineer and your company goes belly-up because your marketing guy was a moron and you didn't have the power to make him listen to your ideas... that's the position many Americans strive to avoid.

> Really? I was thinking it was typically Chinese. My wife's family is from China and they pretty much all try to one up/compare each other in terms of assets, money, or jobs.

I feel that this no longer an American trait. 30 years ago, yeah, but with the whole backlash against the 1% and the hipster movement where bankers making $500k/yr dress like homeless musicians... it's not as cool to flaunt money anymore (unless you're a musician; then it's just part of the whole consumer culture thing because you're selling a life of luxury to poor people...) My household income last year was over seven figures, but I live in a house worth less than half of that and drive a 5 year old base model Subaru. Once money buys you autonomy, it's not really worth much (and that's a modern American perspective that's backed up by research).

> Regardless of your culture, this doesn't change. If you have more more money, you will always have more options/freedom.

I absolutely agree. But the single most important value that America was founded on is self-determination: the idea that each person is in control of their own destiny. Outside forces may get in your way, but it's your obligation to figure out how to get around them. American business culture is the same way: if you want to limit your chances of being fired through no fault of your own, you should probably get more power so you're higher up on the decision making chain.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#388

Post by aantix »

nocman wrote: post #369
aantix wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone has been developing for 30+ years, learning to best describe their track record, position their skill set, and demand a premium for the time isn't hype. It's merely capitalizing on their legacy. There is an issue with calling yourself a "programmer" when one of his main complaints is the lack of monetary return on his career. Don't choose a commodity title if you want a higher than average return on your t…

I never said "demanding a premium for their time" was hype. I said having to call yourself a "Software Engineer" or "Architect" instead of a programmer was hype, and I still think it is. I'd personally rather have someone show me the real work they've done to convince me that they knew what they were doing, rather than giving themselves a meaningless title to convince me how good they are. There are plenty of "Softwa…

We're actually on the same page. Proof of performance is a definite must while interviewing.

The title does the initial framing of expectations, that's it.

There's always going to be idiot consultants. And anyone who doesn't properly vet any candidate is likely to get their expectations crushed.

I'm talking more about the title and language that frames the career.

There's a big difference between "I'm a programmer with 30+ years experience. My last project was a rewrite of my employers checkout API."

vs

"I'm a consultant specializing in Ruby on Rails. For my last client, I rewrote the entire checkout process that supports $400 dollars in transactions. I decreased the time it took to process the initial check out by two seconds. With that increase in checkout speed, I provided an additional 10% lift in revenues."

Both could be describing the same process, but with the latter much more in line with the prospective client's goals.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#389

Post by ArkyBeagle »

maqr wrote: post #339
nickbauman wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH people I know with a lot of money have serious relationship issues. Money distorts your social connections. It's really not worth it. At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go back into the same box (old Sicilian proverb).

You may be right, but I only ever hear my fellow working class people espousing that view...

You may sit at a desk, but if you don't fire people for a living, you're working class.

"Power is only given to those who are prepared to lower themselves to pick it up" - Ragnar Lodbrok, "Vikings".

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#390

Post by hinkley »

euphemize wrote: post #224
donatj wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm about to turn 30 in just over a month. I got my first programming job at 20 and am seriously wondering where my twenties went? Honestly it terrifies me how quickly they went. All of my twenties went about as fast as tenth grade. I blame the time shift of programming. I hear about all the adventures my wife had before we met and just think "well I was busy programming". Since getting married in September I have sp…

Great realization. I'm in a similar boat. On the upside, 30 is still quite young, there's lots of time to do other stuff and slow things down ever more.

The grandparents were telling us the 40's are your best years. You have the money to do things and your body still cooperates most of the time.
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