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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#481
post #469
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mandating a minimum wage, and letting those workers become unemployed, just makes things worse. I'm not sure what you mean by "My point was the reverse" - "public good" is not charity I guess? I'm trying to wrap my head around how a less-than-living wage is a necessity for certain kinds of industry to function profitably, and that, furthermore, indirect government subsidies to them via handouts are essential enable…

You'd need to increase profits, not revenue. If profit margins are around 3%, you'd need to more than double revenue per employee for Walmart. And of course, doubling prices makes less sales, so doesn't double revenue, it might even reduce revenue. Re reverse: you said "above taxes paid" for roads, which I didn't mean to imply. Regarding your "break even" idea: suppose the most someone's labor is worth is $22500 a ye…

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#482
post #469
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mandating a minimum wage, and letting those workers become unemployed, just makes things worse. I'm not sure what you mean by "My point was the reverse" - "public good" is not charity I guess? I'm trying to wrap my head around how a less-than-living wage is a necessity for certain kinds of industry to function profitably, and that, furthermore, indirect government subsidies to them via handouts are essential enable…

You'd need to increase profits, not revenue. If profit margins are around 3%, you'd need to more than double revenue per employee for Walmart. And of course, doubling prices makes less sales, so doesn't double revenue, it might even reduce revenue. Re reverse: you said "above taxes paid" for roads, which I didn't mean to imply. Regarding your "break even" idea: suppose the most someone's labor is worth is $22500 a ye…

>You'd need to increase profits, not revenue.

I wonder if we're starting to talk past one another. I'm just a layperson here, but I believe I got the meaning of revenue (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/revenue.asp) and net income (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/netincome.asp) right. So, revenue is all the money coming in, and revenue per employee really is all money coming in divided by the number of employees. If more money is needed to cover a wage increase, one needs an increase in revenue. Apparently, profit is sometimes synonymous with net income, and sometimes it means what's left of net income after taxes and dividends are paid. In any case, it is not impossible for profit to stay about the same while revenue is increased; that all is dependent on where you're at on your supply-and-demand curve on whether sales are terribly affected by a price increase. E.g., remember when gasoline approached $3.50/gal (http://www.statista.com/statistics/204740/retail-price-of-ga... didn't effect sales by much (http://www.statista.com/statistics/189424/us-alternative-and...). I'm willing to bet that burgers and white socks will move about the same.

>As I understand it deficits have been shrinking

I get where you're coming from, in the past few years deficits have decreased, and considering the mess that revealed itself months before President Obama's inauguration, one would certainly hope dramatic decreases would come and soon. However, I've been around long enough (ok, alive in the 1970's) to remember when deficits began to be so on the minds of people generally and be a general concern. Check out https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals, and http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/10/19/new-data-debunks.... Aside from several good years in the Clinton administration, it's been mostly deficits at substantial or significant levels. Pick a reasonable window of time between now and 10 years or 20 years or 30 years ago, and fit a trend line. You'll find the trend is still highly suggestive of increasing deficits (no matter if Obamacare makes these future increases smaller, https://www.cbo.gov/publication/50252 and https://www.cbo.gov/publication/49892 and https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/51118-2016-03-Budget...).

>Regarding your "break even" idea

Yep, it's just my conjecture. But your counterpoint conveniently side steps on just how the government produces the $7500 in your example. Raising taxes? Issuing more Treasury bonds? Perhaps you could elaborate on this?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#483
post #482
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd need to increase profits, not revenue. If profit margins are around 3%, you'd need to more than double revenue per employee for Walmart. And of course, doubling prices makes less sales, so doesn't double revenue, it might even reduce revenue. Re reverse: you said "above taxes paid" for roads, which I didn't mean to imply. Regarding your "break even" idea: suppose the most someone's labor is worth is $22500 a ye…

>You'd need to increase profits, not revenue. I wonder if we're starting to talk past one another. I'm just a layperson here, but I believe I got the meaning of revenue ( http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/revenue.asp ) and net income ( http://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/netincome.asp ) right. So, revenue is all the money coming in, and revenue per employee really is all money coming in divided by the number of emp…

>I'm willing to bet that burgers and white socks will move about the same.

If that's the case, then Walmart could double their profit now by raising prices. I doubt this.

If you assume revenue goes up without an increase in costs, then yes, but there's little reason to assume that. Walmart carries millions of products, and to assume they can raise the price and not lose sales is wrong.

> But your counterpoint conveniently side steps on just how the government produces the $7500 in your example. Raising taxes?

I had in mind using taxes. I didn't discuss a shift in policy which requires a change in revenue, I was describing the end result. Government raises funds and spends it.

T-bonds are just spending future tax money.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#484
post #461
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what is better, or more desirable? A high school student earning some gas money, or someone else getting that job and supporting themselves?

An alternative is to have a two tiered system [as some countries have]. One for teenagers, another for adults, to compensate for lack of experience, or proxy for need.

I don't trust crappy companies not to abuse the hell out of that system.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#485
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what is better, or more desirable? A high school student earning some gas money, or someone else getting that job and supporting themselves?

A healthy career is a journey that often begins long before you depend on the money. A first job is more than just "gas money".

Not a response to my question at all.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, that gap is a myth. You don't lose benefits as soon as you cross some imaginary threshold, they are phased out as your income increases. So you don't have as much incentive to make more money, but you never lose money in the process.

Take a look at this chart http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user9218...

Do you have the source for this, because it looks suspicious as heck. It has someone making nominally $20,000 receiving $43,000 from the state in assistance. Is it due to a "you are living in a city with sky high rents" adjustment?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but what about when the alcoholic's wife and adorable child show up on the news because they're starving and don't have heat? Or when someone's grandma gets scammed and ends up living on the street? Most people are not willing to tell them "tough luck." So you're back to having all social programs that try to prevent people from doing stupid, short-sighted things.

The wife has her own UBI presumably. I leave it to the family to work it out. Trying to get a UBI on top of all existing handouts seems doomed to failure to me.

You missed the whole point. Said abusive drunk takes all of the money for the household. It happens in real life. You might say "just leave the bum already!", but it's not that simple. People get trapped in shitty situations all the time due to family or religious or mental conditions.

In some ways UBI is the most libertarian of the social safety net options (as weird as that sounds), but it assumes that people act in their rational self-interest or if they are self destructive that there is no collateral damage. That's just not true in the real world.

Like I said, this is why we can't have nice things.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#488
post #483
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You'd need to increase profits, not revenue. I wonder if we're starting to talk past one another. I'm just a layperson here, but I believe I got the meaning of revenue ( http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/revenue.asp ) and net income ( http://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/netincome.asp ) right. So, revenue is all the money coming in, and revenue per employee really is all money coming in divided by the number of emp…

>I'm willing to bet that burgers and white socks will move about the same. If that's the case, then Walmart could double their profit now by raising prices. I doubt this. If you assume revenue goes up without an increase in costs, then yes, but there's little reason to assume that. Walmart carries millions of products, and to assume they can raise the price and not lose sales is wrong. > But your counterpoint conveni…

>...then Walmart could double their profit now by raising prices. I doubt this. ...

>If you assume revenue goes up without an increase in costs, then yes, but there's little reason to assume that.

Well, let's review, and please check out my math below. I did some more googling and copy-pasted what I found.

(copy-paste:) Revenue is calculated by multiplying the price at which goods or services are sold by the number of units or amount sold.

Hence revenue is an amount independent of costs. Two ways to raise revenue, by definition, is to raise prices or increase sales.

(copy-paste:) Profit is a financial benefit that is realized when the amount of revenue gained from a business activity exceeds the expenses, costs and taxes needed to sustain the activity. Any profit that is gained goes to the business's owners, who may or may not decide to spend it on the business.

Hence profit (and not revenue) is the amount that is dependent on costs. Note that net income is often considered the same as profit.

Raising wages raises costs. Without a respective increase in revenue, profit is impacted.

(copy-paste:) Profit margin represents the percentage of revenue that a company keeps as profit after accounting for fixed and variable costs. It is calculated by dividing net income by revenue. The profit margin is mainly used for internal comparisons, because acceptable profit margins vary between industries.

For Walmart, quarterly profit margin is about 3.5% (https://ycharts.com/companies/MCD/profit_margin).

For McDonalds, about 19% (https://ycharts.com/companies/MCD/profit_margin).

So I was suggesting that increased labor costs could be balanced with increased revenue brought about by increased prices. For example, a 4% increase on a 10-pack of white socks that was $7.50 at Walmart is now $7.80. A 14% increase on a Big Mac that was $4.00 (http://www.fastfoodmenuprices.com/mcdonalds-prices/) is now $4.56. With some market research maybe we can figure out how many fewer socks and burgers get sold. But hey, at $4.56 a Big Mac it's still cheaper in the US than in Sweden and Norway (http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index).

An alternative to price increases is to accept a lower profit margin. Let M=Profit Margin, R=Revenue, C=Costs; hence M = (R - C)/R, straight from the definition of Profit Margin. We can show with some algebra that we can take R and C on a per-employee basis and M = (R - C)/R still works with per-employee numbers. Also, M = 1 - C/R. Via algebra, we can find the per-employee costs: C = R(1 - M).

Let W be whatever increase in labor costs to be considered (per employee).

Let C1 = C + W, the new cost from the increase in costs from labor.

Let M1 be the new profit margin after the more expensive labor takes it hit. Again via algebra, M1 = M - (W/R).

To keep the math easy, we'll consider a W where the hourly cost of labor increases $1 for the year (per employee): $1/hr 35 hr/wk * 50 wk = $1750. Now, a $5/hr increase to the employee would mean $5 plus FICA taxes etc. to the employer. So let's then consider a total increase of $6/hr of labor costs too.

For Walmart, then, every dollar to labor is a $1750/$209,622 hit to the profit margin, or barely one basis point (0.835 bps).

For McDonalds, it's $1750/$60,507, or 2.89 bps.

So if Walmart doesn't want to budge from their spot on their supply-and-demand curve (whatever that may be), i.e. doesn't change prices, then in absorbing an additional $6/hr labor cost would mean settling for a profit margin of 3.45% (=3.5 - 6 * 0.835 / 100).

And now McDonalds, for them it would be 18.8% (=19 - 6 * 2.89 / 100).

So how'd I do?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#489
post #488
post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm willing to bet that burgers and white socks will move about the same. If that's the case, then Walmart could double their profit now by raising prices. I doubt this. If you assume revenue goes up without an increase in costs, then yes, but there's little reason to assume that. Walmart carries millions of products, and to assume they can raise the price and not lose sales is wrong. > But your counterpoint conveni…

>...then Walmart could double their profit now by raising prices. I doubt this. ... >If you assume revenue goes up without an increase in costs, then yes, but there's little reason to assume that. Well, let's review, and please check out my math below. I did some more googling and copy-pasted what I found. (copy-paste:) Revenue is calculated by multiplying the price at which goods or services are sold by the number o…

Your math is off by a factor of the profit margin, unfortunately.

209k is revenue. Profit per employee is that times profit margin, which is around 7k. 6 times that $1750 figure is well above profit.

Or just take the 2 million employees they have, multiply by 8 thousand, and get 16 billion, more than their profit.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#490
post #68
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retirees presumably yes, since differentiating 'retired' vs 'unemployed' involves the sort of expensive invasive work that UBI looks to obsolete.

Part of the reason I'm not a UBI proponent is that I have absolutely no confidence in the ability of the real world to "obsolete" that much work. Literally the next bill passed after UBI would be a bill to limit and/or extend it somehow to some favored or disfavored interest. We got to where we are not because of arcane technical procedures, we got to where we are because of the humans in the government. Pass UBI wit…

>Literally the next bill passed after UBI would be a bill to limit and/or extend it somehow to some favored or disfavored interest.

It's universal. You can't extend it, it's universal. You could limit it, but then it's obviously not universal.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but by definition anything not universal is not Universal Basic Income.

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