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The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

teslamotors.com

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Re: The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

#191

Post by erikpukinskis »

forgetsusername wrote: post #101
pluma wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not kid ourselves: right now people are buying Teslas for the same reason they're buying high-end Apple products. They're well-made, sure, but they're foremost a luxury and status symbol. They're better than other status symbols because they actually have functional value that comes close to their market value, but they're still a status symbol. However it seems that Tesla is actually trying to reduce its price…

> They're well-made, sure, but they're foremost a luxury and status symbol. Not sure why this opinion is downvoted, but I agree. The Model S is quite an engineering feat, particularly the D. But the Model 3? There are quite a few cars in that segment that have the performance and "luxury" of that car for cheaper. Being electric (and a Tesla) is the only selling point, and I don't value it that much. I want an electri…

Why is high torque a problem? They have traction control, so they only apply as much torque as they can without slipping.

Re: The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

#192

Post by erikpukinskis »

harwoodleon wrote: post #25

Elon Musk is the brand investors invest in, not tesla, not spacex. As he says, he is the pot of money - he is the core driver. I personally applaud his bravery, changing the established order is hard and carries great risk. He is the real consortium of products and can shift money between these industries at will. The risk here for all of his companies is that he is building a house of cards, one company collapse cou…

Indeed. I put a little bit of money into Tesla, and a big part of it was that I think Musk is just a good executive, and TSLA is the only place I can really put money behind that belief.

Re: The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

#193

Post by [deleted] »

jsli wrote: post #40
huuu wrote: post #10

Related is Tesla's recycling program of batteries: https://www.teslamotors.com/nl_NL/blog/teslas-closed-loop-ba... Some people are skeptical about electric cars because the estimate life span of a battery is around eight years. But reading the article above (and others) you can see the batteries are not an issue anymore. I was also a little skeptical about electric cars but I think the absolute pros are: * Electricit…

> but in the end environment friendly means: using less energy (in any form). Is it? I thought it meant no harm to the environment. If the charging station is powered by solar energy, I don't see how using the otherwise wasted energy wrong.

[deleted]

Re: The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

#194

Post by viraptor »

mikeash wrote: post #129
viraptor wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still talking about new cars, rather than what people actually buy. http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/for-sale/?src=14597540479... says you can go well under 20k for a Honda Civic if you don't want a new one.

There is no point in bringing up the price of used cars when talking about the price of a new car and how that positions it in the market. Somebody had to purchase that Civic when it was new, after all.

I don't see why not. There are two prices. The new car is a luxury and almost only thing about "new" is a status symbol. The moment you hand over the money and drive out, it lost a lot of its value - if you want to sell it now, you're going to get the real value back. And that's what the second price is - the real value of the car.

The parent comment was talking specifically about what people pay and not about the price tag at the new car dealer.

Re: The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

#195

Post by Reason077 »

gcb0 wrote: post #170
Reason077 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the people in Beijing buying Teslas would rather buy a BMW or Audi anyways if they could get the license plates for them Really? I can't imagine anyone who's actually driven a Tesla wanting to go back to an ICE vehicle. People aren't buying Teslas because they're greener or cheaper to operate or even because of government incentives (although those are additional, feel-good benefits). They're buying them because they…

easy on the koolaid there kid. and btw, bmw already sell a EV for under 35k for over a year.

The i3 is a nice city car, but it's no Tesla competitor.

Re: The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

#196

Post by tajen »

bronson wrote: post #17
tajen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lifetime of most cars is 14-20 years (half of it on the second-hand market). Tesla's is 8 years, if I understand. It makes their cars twice as expensive in effect.

The warranty is 8 years. Cars don't just die the moment the warranty runs out, including Teslas. https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/infinite-mile-warranty

Tesla deactivates the car and declares it unfit for road if any part was replaced, until you bring it in for service. Beyond 8 years, we don't know yet how to obtain this service. If Tesla clarified this unknown, it could almost double the value of the cars.

Re: The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

#197

Post by mikeash »

viraptor wrote: post #194
mikeash wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no point in bringing up the price of used cars when talking about the price of a new car and how that positions it in the market. Somebody had to purchase that Civic when it was new, after all.

I don't see why not. There are two prices. The new car is a luxury and almost only thing about "new" is a status symbol. The moment you hand over the money and drive out, it lost a lot of its value - if you want to sell it now, you're going to get the real value back. And that's what the second price is - the real value of the car. The parent comment was talking specifically about what people pay and not about the pr…

The new and used car markets are nearly separate. Few people set out to purchase a car open to both possibilities. If they were comparable then the prices would be more similar. Look at houses for an example of that. New and used houses tend to share the same market, and also tend to have similar prices. If you're looking at a new car and trying to see how it might sell, you want to compare it to other new cars.

Re: The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

#198

Post by MertsA »

lttlrck wrote: post #102
MertsA wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even in brand new cars you can replace the brakes Just as a note, that's not always true. Replacing brake pads is one thing, but if you need to take the caliper off for service or air gets into the ABS system, you may find yourself unable to properly bleed the brakes without access to the tools needed to get the ECU to bleed the ABS system. Depending on the car there really might not be any feasible way to complete…

What car for example? Flushing the brakes is easy low risk maintenance - if there is a manufacturer that's actively blocking flushing via ECU I would like to avoid them.

For instance, Jeeps with ABS. It's not that the manufacturer is actively doing something to prevent you from bleeding the brakes, it's just that to properly bleed the ABS system, you need the ABS system to activate a certain solenoid while you're bleeding them. This necessarily means that something has to talk to the ECU and tell it to bleed the ABS system. The problem is that that something is proprietary tools and diagnostic equipment that the vendor has no real incentive in trying to make accessible to some small shop or the DIY crowd at AutoZone.

Flushing the brakes is fine on every car I've ever heard of. Bleeding air out of the brakes is where it can get more complicated but I'm only talking about cases where air could've feasibly have gotten into the ABS unit. So if you were flushing out some old brake fluid and you managed to drain the reservoir without noticing it, now you have air in the master cylinder and potentially the ABS unit.

Re: The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (2006)

#199

Post by MertsA »

jeremy7600 wrote: post #105
MertsA wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even in brand new cars you can replace the brakes Just as a note, that's not always true. Replacing brake pads is one thing, but if you need to take the caliper off for service or air gets into the ABS system, you may find yourself unable to properly bleed the brakes without access to the tools needed to get the ECU to bleed the ABS system. Depending on the car there really might not be any feasible way to complete…

How do you get air into a closed system? Taking a caliper off does nothing to introduce air into the system. Taking a caliper off is how you replace the pads. (still trying to square how you think it's ok to replace pads but not take a caliper off, but it may come down to interpretation, to me, taking a caliper off is not the same as replacing a caliper, since the caliper is attached to the car and needs to be detach…

>How do you get air into a closed system?

By disconnecting hoses or removing parts that suddenly make it an open system.

>Taking a caliper off does nothing to introduce air into the system.

No but gravity does, the brake calipers themselves actually don't move that far at all between no brake and full brake. It's only moving a tiny amount of fluid into the brake so just an air bubble or two is all it takes for the petal to go to the floor without doing much in the way of applying pressure.

>still trying to square how you think it's ok to replace pads but not take a caliper off, but it may come down to interpretation

What I meant was to totally remove the caliper from the car and disconnect the banjo bolt for the hose. As for just changing pads, you leave that alone and just remove the bolt for one slide pin and then the whole caliper flips up exposing the pads on most cars.

The concern for needing to bleed the brake system completely instead of just a bit at a wheel is if you need to do anything like replace the master cylinder or there was a leak in a wheel cylinder that was fixed but had already drawn air in through half of the master cylinder. If there is a slow leak in a hose or seal it's not uncommon for someone to never check brake fluid level and the low brake fluid sensor might not even come on if it's stuck in position over the course of 15-20 years. Even if it does someone might ignore the brake indicator light because they can still stop okay until it draws air in.

>The addition of the computer has not changed the makeup of a cars engine, just the addition of sensors.

Not too drastically but the computer still needs to know when certain things are changed depending on the vehicle. For instance, on certain BMWs if the battery under the seat is replaced, there is some kind of battery management system that needs to be reset. Failure to reset this can even cause damage to the replacement battery according to BMW. http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1355106-Why...

>Anything related to programming control modules?

"Programming" isn't exactly what I would've called it but for better or for worse, that's the terminology. You're not flashing new software on it so much as configuring it. It's as much programming as "programming" an answering machine is. With that said, let's say I need to replace an instrument panel, ECU, PCM, body ECU, etc, then I very well might need a special tool to pair it with the car. For a new ECU or instrument panel you might need to program in the VIN, mileage, emissions related settings, etc. The point being that while it's not a given that you'll need some obscure dealer only tool to do that, things are trending more and more towards that. Adding more computers and sensors is certainly a good thing in the automotive world but it can be a detriment to repairability until manufacturers start being a bit more reasonable with access to all of the firmware on a modern car.

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