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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#431

Post by aninhumer »

yanilkr wrote: post #428
aninhumer wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our society is doing that to productive people forcibly If they don't like it, they can stop producing. But I'm guessing they're not quite so willing to give up all the other freedoms their money grants them.

They are productive people, they do other things like move to places where there are less taxes mostly out of USA. They hire people outside USA where payroll taxes are less. Or they stash in cyprus and panama. Or buy politicians. Why do you think Steve jobs and other CEOs give them selves 1$ salary because they want to avoid paying income tax and want to pay less capital gains tax.?

>They are productive people, they do other things like move to places where there are less taxes mostly out of USA.

They still need to sell their goods in the US, so we can tax them then.

And as these countries develop, they'll start to implement similar social programs. Eventually there'll be nowhere left to hide.

>Or they stash in cyprus and panama. Or buy politicians.

These are separate problems, with their own solutions.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#432

Post by MaricopaAz »

(Cross-posted from a similar thread) Has anybody studied the outcomes on American Indian reservations from having basic income guaranteed for generations? I'm not an expert or well-read in this field, but I think anybody advocating basic income would be interested to visit a reservation and observe the lifestyles, dreams, goals, and successes found there.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#433

Post by tryitnow »

kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

No, I don't think maximizing employment is a goal in and of itself. It would be better to not employ humans below a certain marginal productivity. Instead, those people need to focus on training/education to enhance their marginal productivity.

And employers should focus on automating those low productivity tasks.

I'm not going to consider the case of people with disabilities - that's fine to have an exception for them. But that's not really what's being discussed in these debates.

I actually think the market wage is socially inefficient because it encourages people to take the short term gain of immediate cash over the long term investment of training/education. It also encourages employers to forego efficiency-enhancing improvements.

Now if humans were rational, 100% responsible, and conscientious, then they would forego low wages, focus on training to achieve higher levels of productivity and enhance the economy by doing so. Instead, there are many people who either through their own lack of judgment or unfortunate circumstances do not seek to optimize their marginal productivity of labor.

That's a market failure and minimum wage is one attempt to solve it.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#434

Post by aninhumer »

RivieraKid wrote: post #402
mmanfrin wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NIC would be harder to understand, or BI would? If the latter, I wholeheartedly disagree. Normal taxes would remain, the only difference is that you get BI as well.

I meant that BI would be harder to understand... It would take more thinking to answer questions such as "what's the effective tax rate for net contributors?", "what's the level at which you're a net contributor", "if we switch to BI, will I become richer or poorer?".

The people who care about those questions are clearly already fairly well off, and they can afford to work it out for themselves. For the people who really benefit, only the last question matters, and the answer is obvious.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#435

Post by tryitnow »

The problem I have articles like these is that they create a false dichotomy. It's possible to have both.

These two policies solve very different problems.

The Basic Income supports the notion that it's not cool to force people to work for food, shelter, etc.

The minimum wage is supported for a bunch of different reasons, most of which I disagree with. But the one I do agree with is that a minimum wage sets a floor on the marginal productivity of labor. This will force employees and employers to improve the productivity of labor - a win all around.

I support the minimum wage because I think low wages are a result of humans behaving irrationally in the market. Employers usually don't think seriously enough about productivity improvements and many employees don't invest sufficiently in training and development to improve their marginal productivity.

The problem I have with minimum wage legislation is that it too often takes place in a vacuum. Look even Marxist economists agree raising the minimum wage can lead to job losses, so let's prepare for that by investing in training programs (vo-tech and community college seem like good bets).

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#436

Post by yanilkr »

aninhumer wrote: post #431
yanilkr wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are productive people, they do other things like move to places where there are less taxes mostly out of USA. They hire people outside USA where payroll taxes are less. Or they stash in cyprus and panama. Or buy politicians. Why do you think Steve jobs and other CEOs give them selves 1$ salary because they want to avoid paying income tax and want to pay less capital gains tax.?

>They are productive people, they do other things like move to places where there are less taxes mostly out of USA. They still need to sell their goods in the US, so we can tax them then. And as these countries develop, they'll start to implement similar social programs. Eventually there'll be nowhere left to hide. >Or they stash in cyprus and panama. Or buy politicians. These are separate problems, with their own so…

If all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. If the only thing you can imagine is taxation then you try to solve every problem with taxation.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#437

Post by mc32 »

kough wrote: post #342
mc32 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 10/hr many people on Snap will not enter workforce because their benefits get reduced. At 15/hr the increase in wage more than offsets decrease in Snap and will attract more workers into the workforce pool. Two low skilled Americans have an advantage in English language skills and for a significant portion of foreign workers, work eligibility.

OK, I understand your argument now. It's almost like we should guarantee some basic level of comfort to all citizens regardless of their employment status, so that they could afford to be hired on at wages employers are willing to pay...

In a non-agricultural society, either it comes from private employment or it comes from government redistribution. We're past the days when people could be expected to strike out on their own for their sustenance or mooch off of extended families.

Therefore, either we raise wages for our low skills workers, or we provide a sliding scale of basic income dependent on work history, self-improvement aptitude, volunteering, etc.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#438

Post by aninhumer »

yanilkr wrote: post #436
aninhumer wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are productive people, they do other things like move to places where there are less taxes mostly out of USA. They still need to sell their goods in the US, so we can tax them then. And as these countries develop, they'll start to implement similar social programs. Eventually there'll be nowhere left to hide. >Or they stash in cyprus and panama. Or buy politicians. These are separate problems, with their own so…

If all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. If the only thing you can imagine is taxation then you try to solve every problem with taxation.

I can imagine many things, I just think taxation is the most obvious solution to the inevitable inequality that results from allowing people to accumulate capital.

And I tend to find that libertarians cling just as hard to the hammer they call "property rights".

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#439

Post by noobermin »

randyrand wrote: post #278
tangent128 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What value exists in bringing that capital back "in" to the USA if it provides no benefit to US citizens in doing so?

Its almost impossible to bring in wealth and not have it benefit people. People dont keep their trillions of dollars under the mattress. Its invested.

>Its almost impossible to bring in wealth and not have it benefit people.

Tell that to Bernie and Trump supporters so they can all pipe down.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#440

Post by dredmorbius »

ikeboy wrote: post #357
dredmorbius wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read Smith. "A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him." https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_... An enterprise which cannot pay the full cost of its inputs isn't an economically viable activity. It's a charity benefiting its owner.

Doesn't that argument apply to any government spending? If my enterprise relies on roads existing, and I cannot pay the full costs of maintaining the roads, say. (Ah, but roads benefit others, and we should only calculate your share! But welfare benefits others as well, it's a collective funding, so the same applies.)

Read Smith:

Of the Expense of Public Works and Public Institutions

The third and last duty of the sovereign or commonwealth is that of erecting and maintaining those public institutions and those public works, which, though they may be in the highest degree advantageous to a great society, are, however, of such a nature that the profit could never repay the expense to any individual or small number of individuals, and which it therefore cannot be expected that any individual or small number of individuals should erect or maintain. The performance of this duty requires, too, very different degrees of expense in the different periods of society.

After the public institutions and public works necessary for the defence of the society, and for the administration of justice, both of which have already been mentioned, the other works and institutions of this kind are chiefly those for facilitating the commerce of the society, and those for promoting the instruction of the people. The institutions for instruction are of two kinds: those for the education of youth, and those for the instruction of people of all ages. The consideration of the manner in which the expense of those different sorts of public, works and institutions may be most properly defrayed will divide this third part of the present chapter into three different articles.

...

That the erection and maintenance of the public works which facilitate the commerce of any country, such as good roads, bridges, navigable canals, harbours, etc., must require very different degrees of expense in the different periods of society is evident without any proof.

Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, Book V, Of the Revenue of the Sovereign or Commonwealth. Chapter 1: Of the Expences of the Sovereign or Commonwealth

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_...

I'm kind of a big fan of people reading Smith, actually reading and reading him, not simply seeing someone else's interpretation (my own included). It's a bit of a big deal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4cyroa/adam_sm...

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