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The Problem with Electric Vehicles

jacquesmattheij.com

171–180 of 205 posts

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#171
Problem 1: Transportation will load the grid and generating capacity in rather nasty ways

Maybe. It depends on exactly where. He cites simultaneous draw from many commuters at once. If the utilities incentivized slower charging overnight through pricing (which is something that they already do for power intensive industries) then this would be greatly ameliorated. Also, in many places, as noted by the op, people will start charging after getting home from work. If charging is delayed by just 3 hours, they will merely be using capacity that already exists for running air conditioners.

Problem 2: Rapid charging is actually not so rapid, highway re-charging stations will have to be much larger than current gas stations

Op is assuming the same structure as gas stations. No need for this. What if the car companies implemented a "charge crawl" feature, where a charging car would slowly inch down a track for a half hour while charging, attached to an overhead suspended cable? Actually, there's no need for that. Just have lots of parking, with each space with a charger. Most road trip rest stops take about 1/2 hour anyhow -- and that's when I'm in drill-sergeant mode with my passengers.

Problem 3: Gas stations are not generally in the neighbourhood of electricity generation stations.

Tesla is already building stations that get power from solar.

Problem 4: Re-charging will not work nearly as well when vehicle utilization goes up due to sharing

Consumers may not want battery swaps yet, but car-share companies might well want it.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're not missing anything, that is a very likely thing to happen.

This assumes the cars are plugged in when there is the most 'extra' capacity being generated from , say, solar thermal/pv. This is when most cars are out at a workplace, not plugged in. This is also when industrial consumption/ac use peaks, so why would you over produce and feed a battery rather than run a plant/keep places cool...

Load shedding.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#174

Can't "gas stations" just swap out your empty battery for a charged one, the way you can swap out an empty propane tank and $20 for a full one?

A few years back I worked on the web presence for a company focused around doing exactly that (along with a network of charging stations).

It didn't quite work out as planned:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place

http://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place-better-pla...

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#175

Can't "gas stations" just swap out your empty battery for a charged one, the way you can swap out an empty propane tank and $20 for a full one?

A few years back I worked on the web presence for a company focused around doing exactly that (along with a network of charging stations). It didn't quite work out as planned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place http://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place-better-pla...

I was thinking more like a car battery meets a propane tank- easy enough to just lift up and take inside to the attendant.

One day, I guess.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#176
post #149
post #25

I have to disagree with many points in that article. My point of reference is the German grid, so it might be different in the US. - switching all cars to electrical would increase the total electricity consumption by 20%, while currently we export about 10% of our production. All the changes are going to happen over a timeframe of more than 20 years, because that is how long it takes to replace the cars at minimum,…

> No reason to charge them at dinner time. Timers and current control & remotely adjusting by power company My main issue is with your notion that the cars should, somehow, be limited to only charging at certain times. The issue becomes, "OMG I CUT OFF MY FINGER". "Oh, sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh, I want to go to Walmart and grab some chips." "Sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh man! I forgot about a meeting I ha…

One of my friends with a Tesla described it in exactly the opposite way: "I never have to think about it because I never have to stop for gas; the car is always just ready to go." He drives somewhere, plugs the car in, does his thing, drives somewhere else, plugs it in, etc. The charge level never goes to zero, so he basically just drives it and the charging takes care of itself as long as he remembers to stick the plug in.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#177
post #164
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No reason to charge them at dinner time. Timers and current control & remotely adjusting by power company My main issue is with your notion that the cars should, somehow, be limited to only charging at certain times. The issue becomes, "OMG I CUT OFF MY FINGER". "Oh, sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh, I want to go to Walmart and grab some chips." "Sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh man! I forgot about a meeting I ha…

> Refueling with an ICE takes no time at all and can be done anywhere. So right. It is truly amazing that more people don't realize the disconnect here between current motor fuels and electricity. The average gallon of gasoline contains 33 kWh of energy. You can pump about 15-20 gallons in 5 minutes or so. That's equivalent to around 6 MWh or 21,000 MJ of energy, every hour. Less if you allow for the time between car…

An average car in Germany would require about 10kWh per day recharge, this can be done on a plain wall socket. Even if you drive twice that range every day, you would not need anywhere close to the powers you are talking about.

The comparison about the energy transfer speed between gasoline and electricity is misleading. First of all, an electric vehicle is about 3x as effective, so you would need only a third of the energy transfer speed.

Then, with a gasoline vehicle, you have always to drive to a fuel station and wait for it to be filled up - there speed matters. With an electric vehicle, the common case should be overnight recharge, so charge speed does not matter much there. This also means, that you are likely to start with a completely filled battery every morning. So unless you are doing long distance travel, you never have to recharge except over night (or, if your work parking facilities offer electrical outlets, during work time). And for long distance travel, there are Superchargers. Yes, those do take longer than refueling gasoline, but unless you travel long distance every day, this might be a good tradeoff.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#178
post #45

I have an electric car, a leaf. I also have solar power from Solar City. I live in sunny MA, where in the winter we average 15kWh generated to the summer we average 50kWh. My commute is 60 miles per day which is around 6-8kW depending in traffic and weather. Also, my local power is a mixture of nuclear and wind. So. Can we please stop rolling coal burning power plants into the electric car equation as if it is univer…

I live in an apartment there is no way to plug in a car or build a solar panel. Basically without a means of owning an outlet no plugin hybrid is possible.

While this is a problem for you, it's not a problem for the market at large. As electric cars become more popular, landlords will offer outlets.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#179

This is not the type of in depth though that I expect from this author, whom I usually find to be brilliant. These are first-level concerns of somebody who just realized electric cars exist and is looking for the "problems", however in practice most of these are mitigated by tech curves, and the true problems are going to be far different.

I think he sort of suggests the "true problem" in the beginning by questioning the premise of even owning a car. He decided, perhaps wisely, to not go down that rabbit-hole. We are all interested in how technology will change our lives and solve problems but many folks aren't willing to consider that actually solving some problems requires living in a way which is intrinsically different. It might very well be possib…

Is it really sane to live 20-50 miles away from where one works

Even though my commute is quite pleasant: a 20-minute drive on quiet country roads then a 30-minute bus trip followed by a 10-minute walk to the office, I think about this quite a lot. Especially during the "drive on country roads" bit.

I live in a rural area and I really like it where I live, for any number of reasons. I have absolutely no desire to move back to the city that I work in, even though when I was living there I had a lot of fun.

Life is better when it's simpler and one way I can make it simpler is by either working remotely (not a possibility with my current employer), or becoming self-employed. Wasting time commuting, no matter how enjoyable the commute, is still wasting time.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#180
post #37

This is a bunch of fallacies that have been brought up again and again and have been addressed. The biggest canard is "If everybody switched to EVs tomorrow our power grid couldn't handle!" Yes and if everyone went outside right now and pooped in the street we'd all drown in shit. Neither scenario is actually going to happen. The reality is that EVs are far, far more efficient than ICE vehicles. Not only that, they d…

Exactly correct. Just wait though, I said the exact same thing above and the author told me to "fuck off", and the HN hivemind is heavily down-modding any comments critical of this guy.

Yeah wow, my comment had like +2 earlier today and now it's down to 0. Guess the dude called his friends in.
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