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The Problem with Electric Vehicles

jacquesmattheij.com

141–150 of 205 posts

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#141

This is not the type of in depth though that I expect from this author, whom I usually find to be brilliant. These are first-level concerns of somebody who just realized electric cars exist and is looking for the "problems", however in practice most of these are mitigated by tech curves, and the true problems are going to be far different.

I think he sort of suggests the "true problem" in the beginning by questioning the premise of even owning a car. He decided, perhaps wisely, to not go down that rabbit-hole. We are all interested in how technology will change our lives and solve problems but many folks aren't willing to consider that actually solving some problems requires living in a way which is intrinsically different. It might very well be possib…

Presumably at least some techno-optimists would agree, but suggest that transitioning to electric cars is a step towards making our bad situation better. Restructuring our cities, getting everyone to bicycle, walk, or use public transit (and killing off the auto industry, which is a significant chunk of the manufacturing economy) would be much harder to accomplish in the near future.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#142
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no particular reason we can't install a gas pump on every street corner, and in every office parking space, either - except for economies of scale, environmental reviews, HOA opposition, theft and vandalism... These are not insurmountable problems, but they are expensive, or very time-consuming ones. You also can't just run a power cord from a wall outlet to the street. You'll need to tear up the sidewalks, t…

What's your point? The expense and danger of gas pumps make them completely incomparable to EV charging stations. Replying to your edit: If you're installing them for a whole street at once, then the cost of bringing power down from a pole or digging under the sidewalk gets amortized across them all. We already hook every house up for water, gas, electricity, and communications. Providing power to every parking spot…

Most of the houses in these areas are already hooked up for water, gas, electricity, and telecom - and the power comes from throwing a power line to the roof. Bringing it down to ground level would be cheap-ish if you're already tearing up the street, but there isn't all that much new construction, either.

Yes, you can slowly convert the whole area to support street-level chargers over the next few decades - but until you do, having chargers on ~20% of the streets would be next-to worthless. There is a dire shortage of street level parking in this neighborhood - if you limit your possible spots to the ones where chargers are available, it's quite unlikely that you'll be able to get a space.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#143
I'm guessing Jacques lives in a large European city because this piece reads like someone who has absolutely no understanding of how a typical American uses an automobile. Land use, city planning, public transportation and highway management in Europe are all completely different from that of America, or specifically the United States. Accepting that you can't just give up your car, he then enumerates short comings of EVs that just don't add up.

The implication that simple lifestyle changes would enable most American's to do away with their automobiles is utterly ridiculous and demonstrates complete ignorance to the suburban environment surrounding all cities in the United States and other parts of America. If a large number of people did vacate the suburbs for the city, this would create a housing market crash in the suburbs that would draw just as many people out of the cities into the suburbs. Without revising land use policies in the United States, there's no way to support this. Just look at gun control polices if you need any more evidence of how ridiculous this notion is.

His argument that everyone will be charging their EVs at peak times and will overload the grid is ridiculous and completely ignores the fact that most people today are aware of peak vs off peak electricity rates and specifically charge their EVs during off peak hours to avoid paying higher rates. This is analogous to driving a few extra miles to save $.05/gallon on gas. People are cheap and won't do that for financial reasons.

He then goes on to make a number of points about the lack of charging infrastructure that would make EVs unfeasible but these completely ignore his first assertion that most people will be charging at home. More than 90%* of commuters have a commute of less than 36 miles one-way which means that only 2 EVs on market (i.e. Mitsubishi i-MiEV, Smart Electric Drive) would be unable to cover their daily commute. Which means that in most cases the need for charging stations would be radically diminished. Another thing to consider is that petrol stations exist in their current form because of regulator requirements around the storage of hazardous materials (i.e. petroleum products). There's no such restrictions around EV charging stations and in a world with 90%+ EVs it's not hard to imagine every parking spot having a charge station.

The assertion about vehicle maintenance being an issue is also equally ridiculous. He states that most EV systems will be unservicable at the average garage which is debatable. The power train will probably remain unserviceable but an EV's powertrain is significantly more reliable than your typical ICE. All of the other major and minor systems (i.e. drivetrain, environmental, braking, etc) in an EV are similar to those of an ICE vehicle and thus serviceable at a regular garage. Considering that most EVs will be daily commuters, the likelihood that you'll find yourself with a powertrain failure in a location where your EV can't be serviced is also highly unlikely.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/

http://ecomento.com/2015/03/23/nissan-leaf-ev-battery-reliab...

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope the author realizes that at some point there wasn't a network of gas stations across the country, Not much of an argument. The ICE won out over electric drivetrains for the express reason that liquid fuels are far easier to provide logistics for than batteries. Most electric car makers stopped production at some point in the 1910s. It's not that electric vehicles were never tried out. They were. Gasoline was…

Yes it was. In 1910. Do you honestly expect that to always be true?

Until and unless something fundamental changes about batteries, sure. If you can figure out how to charge a battery at the same rate as filling up a gas tank, then that would qualify. If you can quadruple capacity, and therefore range, that would also qualify.

Right now and for the foreseeable future, EVs are a promising alternative to regular cars, but if everyone hops on board, the logistics will murder us.

EVs won't work until they're actually better than ICEs in every way. Not just some of the ways, all of them. Because only that will make the economics of replacing our entire gasoline-based infrastructure work.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#145

If you consider that EVs have A) large batteries w/ efficient charge/discharge cycles, B) efficient high-capacity inverters, and C) are plugged in (somewhere) for large fractions of their life, and D) very often have capacity far exceeding their next expected trip duration, then: It is inevitable that Tesla (or someone else) will implement Grid-tied battery backup as a standard option on these vehicles. When that hap…

No, you're not missing anything, that is a very likely thing to happen.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#146
post #96
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the true problems? I find Jacques' concerns to be well thought out, showing that he has actually dug into the numbers. However, I'm interested to know what you see are even more significant problems.

Its sort of an amateurs discuss tactics and generals discuss logistics kind of problem. Oddly enough for HN, its a scalability problem (LOL). If you turned the entire known planetary stock of economically useful lithium ore into present gen batteries with 100% efficiency (LOL) and eliminated all competing uses (LOL), depending who's goofy numbers you use, you could give every human on the planet roughly one electric…

EVs may end up coinciding with the rise of automated cars, which may give rise to a large portion of people accessing vehicles on-demand (and not owning them). It that bcomes true, it's very possible that the world very much won't need even one EV per person...

How much is "economically useful or available" lithium is interesting as what makes sense to access now with current technologies changes as demand increases. More expensive techniques get pioneered and then the access cost drops for the technique as it gets optimized - much like the recent fracking boom.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he sort of suggests the "true problem" in the beginning by questioning the premise of even owning a car. He decided, perhaps wisely, to not go down that rabbit-hole. We are all interested in how technology will change our lives and solve problems but many folks aren't willing to consider that actually solving some problems requires living in a way which is intrinsically different. It might very well be possib…

Presumably at least some techno-optimists would agree, but suggest that transitioning to electric cars is a step towards making our bad situation better. Restructuring our cities, getting everyone to bicycle, walk, or use public transit (and killing off the auto industry, which is a significant chunk of the manufacturing economy) would be much harder to accomplish in the near future.

The path we as a society ultimately take isn't up to any one entity making decisions (not even Elon Musk :-) ).

Certainly lifestyle transitions will require decades, after all, it took decades to cities to become car-centric. But can happen even within a generation. Many millennials eschew car ownership and are moving back to cities, whereas for baby boomers the car was a rite of passage as well as its concomitant house in the 'burbs.

Transitioning entirely to electric vehicles will also take decades (admittedly it would be less time because car-years are much quicker than people-years).

What will happen is some mixture of both of these along with random jags of reactionary fascination with the happy-motoring era and who knows what else.

Ultimately, we only have a finite quantity of fossil fuels and there is no "free-refill" for the planet. At some point, lifestyles will have to change drastically to accommodate this limitation as population continues to grow.

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#148
post #39

These are relatively minor problems however. The gas station problem for example is solved by charging your car at home or work. Gas stations exist because we can't refuel our cars at home.

What about people who park curbside? Will their cars be spending 2 hours/night at the charging station?

you mean like this? https://www.kaltire.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Jan-6-Plu...

we have heating blocks for cars that park outside in north america. If you can install a street light, it's not that hard to install a curbside charger

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#149
post #25

I have to disagree with many points in that article. My point of reference is the German grid, so it might be different in the US. - switching all cars to electrical would increase the total electricity consumption by 20%, while currently we export about 10% of our production. All the changes are going to happen over a timeframe of more than 20 years, because that is how long it takes to replace the cars at minimum,…

> No reason to charge them at dinner time. Timers and current control & remotely adjusting by power company

My main issue is with your notion that the cars should, somehow, be limited to only charging at certain times. The issue becomes, "OMG I CUT OFF MY FINGER". "Oh, sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh, I want to go to Walmart and grab some chips." "Sorry, cars not charged yet." "Oh man! I forgot about a meeting I had with my realtor!" "Sorry, cars not charged yet"

> "There's no reason to recharge them at dinner time."

The issue is that this could be a problem now. Instead of me just being able to put fuel in my car whenever, now I have to be like "Oh yeah, it's dinner time and I'm home. Can't recharge my car yet!"

AND, when everyone has an electric car, it will very quickly become like a busy cable network in your neighborhood. "Well, it's estimating 18 days until the ~download~ charge is done."

Refueling with an ICE takes no time at all and can be done anywhere. Even if the car is out of gas in my driveway, I have a chance to walk and get a can of fuel and put fuel in my car (in probably less time than it would take to recharge it).

I would bet that the "power company's night time rebates" would go away really fast when they were struggling to meet the sudden demand of charging everyone's cars.

> Most Tesla owners are happy with their range and it will improve by 5%/year.

Even if their current range is 300 miles, that's 15 miles the first year. That's not really significant.

Lastly, your disagreements all seem to be either flawed or they seem to be with the less important issues (tow hitch, range) and ignore the more important (charge time, accessibility, cost, cost of infrastructure, etc).

Re: The Problem with Electric Vehicles

#150
I'm really surprised by this article. Electric cars shouldn't be discounted just because they aren't as green as the seem/are advertised to be - they are still by all accounts more efficient than ICE vehicles (even with our terrible electric grid and issues with demand).

Load demand will be solved with local and utility scale energy storage, something which is occurring already in Hawaii where solar is so widely deployed that utilities have placed a moratorium on storage-less solar deployments because they can't handle the demand changes when a cloud rolls through town.

The issue with our electric grid is recognized at the highest levels of our nation. President Obama brought this up largely unprompted during his recent interview with Destin Sandlin.

Destin: "These huge technological projects that you're talking about, stuff America builds with our hands; I'm thinking of the Hoover Dam, the Eisenhower interstate system, Kennedy launched Apollo... Am I gonna to see that, ever again, in my generation?"

Obama: "I would like to see it - you know - in that order for us to do that, it requires a common vision of some of these big projects - now, I'll give you an example of an area where we should be investing, and that is creating a smart grid. This is something I've been interested in for a while. The way we link up energy is hugely inefficient in this country ... but the basic electricity grid that we have wastes huge amounts of energy."

This leaves us with only the range/changing issues which will both resolve as battery tech improves. Either of increased range or faster charging batteries will help, and we are seeing both. The demand for the Tesla proves we are already at parity.

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