A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage • Hacker News Board

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#131

Post by twoquestions » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:50 PM UTC

yanilkr wrote: post #95

A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which i…

I'll bite, UBI is in my opinion the least worst antipoverty program I've seen.

What else can you do when someone's broke, homeless, and can't provide enough value to sell to get a roof over their head? Just telling people to "Work Harder!" in a market that's become increasingly hostile to unskilled labor seems callous and short-sighted.

We can't just get rid of nonproductive people.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#132

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:50 PM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #42

paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

I don't think it's actually a problem if people receiving basic income are 'wasting it' on 'frivolities'. If we don't start redistributing wealth, the economy is going to freeze up. There's only so much stuff that computer programmers in silicon valley can buy.

[deleted]

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#133

Post by ThrustVectoring » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:51 PM UTC

There's a non-obvious danger for basic income: rent-seeking behavior. Landlords charge whatever the market will bear, so there's a huge risk of funneling money through the recipients without improving their quality of life. And it isn't just landlords that hold that kind of rentier position - universities, for instance, would also extract more out of their position as employment gatekeepers.

Attacking rent-seeking behavior would likely have a bigger impact on the everyday lives of the poor. Land-value taxes are a good place to start.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#134

Post by alttab » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:51 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #99

alttab wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mortgage interest deduction "hurts" only government tax revenues. Raising the tide on minimum wage impacts every business that has employees, regardless of what their cost structure is. What if your business worked in such a way that a single employee wouldn't even produce $15 of revenue in an hour? You can't lose money on every sale and make up for it in volume. The artificial increase is a problem because it go…

Who does it help? Anybody? When you tell every home shopper "you can afford x% more house thanks to this deduction", what do you think that does to prices?

Trust me, its not mortgage interest rate deductions that are driving up demand and prices for homes. Overseas buyers paying all cash are driving up prices - and stock markets pumped full of zero interest cash are causing soaring prices.

If you are suggesting that mortgage interest rate deductions are fueling another housing bubble, then we are about to witness another amazing sub-prime real-estate crash.

Considering I just purchased a new home under the new underwriting rules / regulations, I can assure you that this marginal deduction is not qualifying a huge number of home buyers to the point it makes a difference on the price in comparison to the rest of the home market environment.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#135

Post by Joeboy » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:51 PM UTC

I would think that a requisite for a basic income happening would be tax revenues growing faster than the cost of living. Is that happening? I'd be surprised, but maybe somebody who knows better can enlighten me.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#136

Post by QuotedForTruth » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:51 PM UTC

kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

The counter argument is that human labor has an actual cost. That is the cost to keep a human alive and in some level of comfort. Government benefits of many different types have "artificially" lowered this cost. Where employees refuse to pay enough for a human to live on, the government picks up the slack. Raising the minimum wage may be "artificial," but its not the first control placed on some otherwise natural labor market.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#137

Post by ricardobeat » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:51 PM UTC

yanilkr wrote: post #95

A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which i…

Actually automation is replacing the work that humans have to do - this means that most activities left will be the ones that are not in high demand, with low or no pay. Imagine we have machines providing us food and all the material possessions we ever need, without any human input. Traditional capitalism/distribution of wealth through employment makes little sense under this scenario.

    This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which is harder and my earnings are taken away?

a) The "productive sources" are mostly automated. b) you also get rewarded since the basic income is universal. whatever work you do provides you with extra income - people who work hard will still be rewarded accordingly.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#138

Post by refurb » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:52 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #25

harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Interesting. This chart is a pretty good reference to see what types of existing spending might overlap with that (Social Security?) and what wouldn't. https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_...

You couldn't eliminate social security payments since for a lot of folks, they take home more than $10K. You could lop off the bottom 10%, but a lot of spending would remain.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#139

Post by bufordsharkley » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:52 PM UTC

kinghajj wrote: post #102

harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Aren't UBI proposals designed so that those who earn more than the yearly stipend from employment don't receive it?

The key to the UBI is that there is no means test (which introduces bad incentives, etc).

UBI with means testing is known as the Guaranteed Minimum Income.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#140

Post by noiv » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:52 PM UTC

yanilkr wrote: post #95

A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which i…

> A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty.

Funny, I always thought of UBI exactly the other way round. More precise I'd even say it is the most valuable opportunity at hand to generate sustainable values not degrading the planet in the aftermath.