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Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the idea of people dressing up simple theft as something other than it is, and in the ill-fitting trappings of a global social good, despite the fact that the institutions being financed by this form of theft were the largest non natural cause of death in the preceding century truly objectionable, too. Letalone moving onto a particularly egregious sort of theft involved in modern taxation rackets where the bur…

Not paying taxes is leaching. Tax dollars pay for the infrastructure that holds society together. If it wasn't for tax dollars, the society in which you derive your income wouldn't exist. You are provided access under the condition that you put your fair share in when you profit from what is provided. We have a democratic process to determine who can and at what rate they should contribute back. What right do you hav…

>Not paying taxes is leaching.

Not paying at all and expecting society to still support me, yes that is leaching. But thinking I shouldn't be forced to pay to blow up innocent children or to subsidize the break down of traditional families... how is that leaching.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxation is obviously not theft, any more than charging for goods is. "75% of your income" is a very different thing than "75% of your income beyond a certain figure"; I have no problem with basic levels of income being absolutely tax-free. I don't agree with many actions undertaken by my government, including launching illegal wars which I have protested on the street against. That doesn't mean I don't think everyon…

> Taxation is obviously not theft, any more than charging for goods is. The difference between charging for goods and services vs taxation is that you are unable to choose not to patronise the state. A mugger charging you 75% of your income for the privilege of leaving his dark alley with your throat unslit is providing the same choice to you as the state is with regards to taxation. You are not free to refuse to be…

> The difference between charging for goods and services vs taxation is that you are unable to choose not to patronise the state.

I agree with you on this for persons, that membership in the state should be voluntary and accessible. Currently people are forced into state membership and discriminated against when they seek alternative state memberships based on birthplace, parents, and other factors which would typically be considered bigotry.

However, this argument breaks down entirely when applied to corporations. Corporations do have voluntary membership in states; nobody is obligating a corporation to make use of the services of any state. Beyond a certain size, corporations basically have complete freedom to operate within whatever states they choose, making use of the services of that state. And when you consider that the vast majority of income for the rich comes from such corporations, and furthermore that one of the easiest ways to change which state(s) you are a member of is to operate through a corporation, the separation between corporations and rich individuals becomes unimportant. Maybe you are unable to choose not to patronize the state, but the very rich are not so limited. If anything this is a very strong argument for progressive taxation: the rich are patronizing the state more by choice than the poor and therefore it's fairer to charge them more taxes.

> So yes, it is nearly three quarters of this person's income, being taken against their will, to support an institution which is not just incompetent, but actually hugely, enormously viciously destructive and damaging to the world at large, to the extent that it is the largest non natural cause of death in the preceding century.

This would be a more persuasive argument if the governments to which this money was going were not run by the same people who are evading the taxes. Most, if not all, of the wars in the last 50 years have been caused by corporate interests. The difference between government and corporations is that at least in representative democracies, the governments must make enough pretense of doing good to keep getting elected (with plenty of help from corporate funding and other forms of corruption). Tax avoidance means that less money must go through this pretense; it's easier to justify spending less money on schools when the government has less money.

> Frankly, I'd give up almost all of the rest of it to avoid having given any of it to those parasites to begin with, and this is a constant drain on my motivation for economic activity in general, knowing how much of my earnings will go to finance activities that make me violently ill if I think too hard about them.

Okay, so why don't you act on your beliefs instead of stating them ineffectually? I doubt many people are enforcing the citizenship or taxation laws of Somalia right now. You can probably opt out of patronizing a state by moving there. If you really think that being forced to patronize a state whose actions you don't agree with is unfair to you, there are ways to stop patronizing states.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#413
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for nitpicking, but: in Russian language Vlad is the short form for Vladislav, not Vladimir.

plenty of Vladimirs go by Vlad. Source: used to live in Russia

Never heard that someone named Vladimir shortened their name as Vlad. Live in Russia for 30 years. Most of the times you can call Vladimir as Vova. If you tell that your name is Vlad, everyone will think that you are Vladislav.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not paying taxes is leaching. Tax dollars pay for the infrastructure that holds society together. If it wasn't for tax dollars, the society in which you derive your income wouldn't exist. You are provided access under the condition that you put your fair share in when you profit from what is provided. We have a democratic process to determine who can and at what rate they should contribute back. What right do you hav…

>Not paying taxes is leaching. Not paying at all and expecting society to still support me, yes that is leaching. But thinking I shouldn't be forced to pay to blow up innocent children or to subsidize the break down of traditional families... how is that leaching.

> But thinking I shouldn't be forced to pay to blow up innocent children or to subsidize the break down of traditional families...

We live in a republic, show your disapproval of these policies to your representatives. There are people with similar opinions, I am one of them, and hopefully the change will gain momentum.

> how is that leaching.

The same arguments are piggy-backed upon by people who are morally opposed to all taxes. Hijacking issues that many people are opposed to, such as funding unpopular wars, is a convenient way of promoting an ideology.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#415
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Associates of Russian President Vladimir Putin secretly shuffled as much as $2 billion through banks and shadow companies So where's the other $198 billion? > Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, who has positioned himself as a reformer in a country shaken by corruption scandals Not surprising. An oligarch doing oligarch things. Surprised anyone thought he'd be anything but corrupt. > Movie star Jackie Chan, who h…

> So where's the other $198 billion? The company the data has leaked from is not even in the top 3 of its kind. Either way going from the (claimed) zero fortune to billions discovered on the spot is telling.

Except there's no proof it's his billions (Putin's name isn't in the leaks). Just that someone he knows may have been involved.

Everyone knows Putin will use the oligarchs when expedient, and crush them when he needs to. And he has cracked down on them over the years. Still no actual proof he's done anything to enrich himself.

Meanwhile, as the media turns that molehill into a mountain, there's an actual smoking gun in Poroshenko, and many western leaders. But in the media it's all about Putin.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#416
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in legal ways that 99.99% of the rest of the population doesn't engage in This finally sounds like an industry that's ripe for disruption—Tax Loopholes For Everyone!

You will like this story ;) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crickhowell-welsh-town-...

I do, actually! Thanks for sharing it :-)

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#417
post #239
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think I don't have political views, just observing faults of existing structures and finding bug fixes. I'm neither left or right or peachpie. Maybe you would call me a realist and I'm sure there's a way to put me in a box for that view, though it's important to stress that I don't subscribe to any particular political system. Humans are just too hard to manage that none of those black/white ideologies work…

> Okay, let's say there's no governing body. Now, there's a dispute. How is it resolved? Fight to death? You've got an excellent question and I've got an excellent answer for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o It's a short video, but I highly recommend it to you (skip the first minute or so for a short historical intro). Please come back here and let me know if it answered your question. I also hope it…

Watched it and as I guessed you will again have, like in a distributed system, some management facility. Friedman call it a judge or arbitrator and everyone can have their own, where judges will work out contracts between themselves for disputes of their own.

So, this all sounds like P2P with an evolutionary system of contracts between all kinds of parties, where there's no universal rule book (aka what we know as a country's laws).

If this really works, good, but how do you solve that humans will see that the contract between two other parties is better and will want the same deal? Will you give it to them?

I'd really like to think this is workable as it would give custom-fit "laws" for everybody. Though, there still needs to be some kind of general laws for heinous crimes, doesn't it?

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#418
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So where's the other $198 billion? The company the data has leaked from is not even in the top 3 of its kind. Either way going from the (claimed) zero fortune to billions discovered on the spot is telling.

Except there's no proof it's his billions (Putin's name isn't in the leaks). Just that someone he knows may have been involved. Everyone knows Putin will use the oligarchs when expedient, and crush them when he needs to. And he has cracked down on them over the years. Still no actual proof he's done anything to enrich himself. Meanwhile, as the media turns that molehill into a mountain, there's an actual smoking gun…

Well, Poroshenko offshore turned out to be what, 3,400 usd? And it's a mountain compared to Putin's two billions? Sorry but no; also nobody generally gives a damn about Poroshenko given his temporary and marginal role in the world politics.

Exposing the western leaders is all good, it does happen regularly thanks to the free press of the Western world. Taking Putin's corruption virginity, however, is once in a lifetime event and is definitely more newsworthy than misdeeds of the Western temps in the office.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#419
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except there's no proof it's his billions (Putin's name isn't in the leaks). Just that someone he knows may have been involved. Everyone knows Putin will use the oligarchs when expedient, and crush them when he needs to. And he has cracked down on them over the years. Still no actual proof he's done anything to enrich himself. Meanwhile, as the media turns that molehill into a mountain, there's an actual smoking gun…

Well, Poroshenko offshore turned out to be what, 3,400 usd? And it's a mountain compared to Putin's two billions? Sorry but no; also nobody generally gives a damn about Poroshenko given his temporary and marginal role in the world politics. Exposing the western leaders is all good, it does happen regularly thanks to the free press of the Western world. Taking Putin's corruption virginity, however, is once in a lifeti…

> Sorry but no; also nobody generally gives a damn about Poroshenko given his temporary and marginal role in the world politics.

They should. A leader was overthrown and a nation plunged into civil war so he could be installed.

And somehow in 2 years he's managed to be even less-liked than Yanukovych was at his lowest point... http://www.gallup.com/poll/187931/ukrainians-disillusioned-l...

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#420
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Poroshenko offshore turned out to be what, 3,400 usd? And it's a mountain compared to Putin's two billions? Sorry but no; also nobody generally gives a damn about Poroshenko given his temporary and marginal role in the world politics. Exposing the western leaders is all good, it does happen regularly thanks to the free press of the Western world. Taking Putin's corruption virginity, however, is once in a lifeti…

> Sorry but no; also nobody generally gives a damn about Poroshenko given his temporary and marginal role in the world politics. They should. A leader was overthrown and a nation plunged into civil war so he could be installed. And somehow in 2 years he's managed to be even less-liked than Yanukovych was at his lowest point... http://www.gallup.com/poll/187931/ukrainians-disillusioned-l...

The nation was invaded, by that Russian dude you try to whitewash so hard. On the other hand, I now understand your issue with the revelations.
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