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Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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371–380 of 452 posts

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#371
post #341
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not worth it for them - they do not pay enough taxes to warrant it Not only do they pay a larger portion of their fortune, that money makes a much bigger difference to them (us, why do I say them?) in our everyday lives. > They most probably still pay much more tax than average person They probably pay much less than what they should . They benefit from from an organized state much more than the average person…

This is so true, otherwise businesses would be flocking to set up in low regulation, low tax countries like Somalia.

Larger businesses disproportionately benefit from law-and-order and infrastructure.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could not agree more. Our society is based on the foundation that everybody does her/his own fair share, if the leaders of the world think it is not the way then lets just stop paying taxes and see how fast things change. One funny thing about humanity, we used to pay 1/10 of our income that was enough for the "state", I am paying 65% (that is right) of my income to the sate right now and it is not enough, I have to…

Where do you live that has a >65% top income tax rate? Because I quite like the sound of it. Or are you conflating other taxes and presenting an overall figure?

In the UK where you are from, the top marginal rate is 13.8% employer NI (make no mistake, that money comes out of your pocket), 2% employee NI, and 45% income tax. Grand total = 60.8%.

So you're not far off.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation is a fair tax, it taxes money.

Actually it's a tax to being far from the central bank. The further you are the longer the price signal from the printed money will take to reach you. Inflation is cancer.

The problem is how the printed money is distributed.

Central banks convert it into debt with interest, this is bad.

Paying it as wages or a national dividend would get it to the leaves where it benefits people, then communities, then society and then banks.

I argue inflation is not bad just how the printed money is distributed.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#374
post #333
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eliminating inequality of taxation means flat tax instead of progressive tax. That would require either substantial reduction of the government expenses or substantial raise of the taxes for low incomes. That probably won't be very popular.

"Inequality" here is a weasel word, because it sounds bad without further argumentation. The argument for progressive taxation is that the same tax rate is a far lesser burden on someone who makes more than on someone who makes less. If one agree with that, then progressive taxation would seem to be fairer. Of course "fair" is entirely subjective.

the government will always "need" more money

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's horrible that I like the sound of a high-ish top rate of income tax? We haven't even stated the terms of what income level that tax rate is applied at, so your finding it horrible is either a total misunderstanding, or you object to the progressive nature of variable income tax outright. I hope it's the former, because I find the latter truly objectionable.

I find the idea of people dressing up simple theft as something other than it is, and in the ill-fitting trappings of a global social good, despite the fact that the institutions being financed by this form of theft were the largest non natural cause of death in the preceding century truly objectionable, too. Letalone moving onto a particularly egregious sort of theft involved in modern taxation rackets where the bur…

Taxation is obviously not theft, any more than charging for goods is. "75% of your income" is a very different thing than "75% of your income beyond a certain figure"; I have no problem with basic levels of income being absolutely tax-free. I don't agree with many actions undertaken by my government, including launching illegal wars which I have protested on the street against. That doesn't mean I don't think everyone is entitled to a certain level of wellbeing, paid for by the general economy.

After taxation, what is your actual income? Is it not enough?

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#376
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, being featured in these documents is not in and of itself evidence of any wrongdoing. There are entirely lawful and legitimate reasons for making use of offshore company structures.

I'd replace wrongdoing with illegal. If you ask me, if you're a billionaire and you're not willing to pay taxes and spend 0.0001% of your wealth on the expertise to reduce your tax bill by 99%, in legal ways that 99.99% of the rest of the population doesn't engage in, then by all means that's wrongdoing to me and I think most would be with me on that. Of course it's not necessarily illegal.

>by all means that's wrongdoing to me and I think most would be with me on that.

Well, for what it's worth, I don't agree with you.

People are obliged to pay the tax they are legally obliged to pay, and that's it. It doesn't matter how rich or poor you are. Billionaires are not obliged to voluntarily pay more than they are required to. And neither is anybody else. And it really is not a coherent position to claim otherwise, in my view.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#377
post #216

When the first three leaders named are the top 3 enemies/adversaries of the US/Britain - Putin, Xi and Assad - my own little conspiracy canary started chirping. And the Icelandic PM? The one who really annoyed Britain by defaulting on their debts? Makes me wonder who orchestrated the leak.

Kim of North Korea or late Chavez aren't mentioned either. Is that because they are friends of the US/Britain?

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the idea of people dressing up simple theft as something other than it is, and in the ill-fitting trappings of a global social good, despite the fact that the institutions being financed by this form of theft were the largest non natural cause of death in the preceding century truly objectionable, too. Letalone moving onto a particularly egregious sort of theft involved in modern taxation rackets where the bur…

Taxation is obviously not theft, any more than charging for goods is. "75% of your income" is a very different thing than "75% of your income beyond a certain figure"; I have no problem with basic levels of income being absolutely tax-free. I don't agree with many actions undertaken by my government, including launching illegal wars which I have protested on the street against. That doesn't mean I don't think everyon…

> Taxation is obviously not theft, any more than charging for goods is.

The difference between charging for goods and services vs taxation is that you are unable to choose not to patronise the state. A mugger charging you 75% of your income for the privilege of leaving his dark alley with your throat unslit is providing the same choice to you as the state is with regards to taxation. You are not free to refuse to be a customer of the state, any more than you are free to refuse to be a customer of said mugger.

The only factual mathematically definable difference between theft and taxation is that taxation is legal, and hey presto, it's the agency that writes the laws which defines this difference. Nice trick if you can find idiots naive enough to fall for it, and they are fortunately not in short supply.

If taxation is not theft, then the holocaust, or any killing by any state in all of history, is by definition not murder, because the difference between the murder and state sanctioned killing is the same as the difference between theft and taxation, one is technically illegal, and that is all.

> 75% of your income" is a very different thing than "75% of your income beyond a certain figure"

It is indeed, and you appear to not have grasped what OP actually says, so let's put it here so you can reconsider your position;

>> I am paying 65% (that is right) of my income to the sate (sic) right now

Not "I touch the 65% tax bracket at the top of the progressive income tax schedule which the state I am resident in has declared", but "I am paying 65% (that is right) of my income" period.

So yes, it is nearly three quarters of this person's income, being taken against their will, to support an institution which is not just incompetent, but actually hugely, enormously viciously destructive and damaging to the world at large, to the extent that it is the largest non natural cause of death in the preceding century.

> I don't agree with many actions undertaken by my government, including launching illegal wars which I have protested on the street against.

And worse yet, you actually know just how terrible the actions of the state are, to the extent that you have taken to the street protesting it, and yet you still feel the need to speak up in a public forum about how the idea that these parasites forcibly rob people of nearly three quarters of their earnings makes you feel warm and fuzzy on the inside?

Think long and hard about this.

> That doesn't mean I don't think everyone is entitled to a certain level of wellbeing, paid for by the general economy.

Even if you granted that "everyone is entitled to a certain level of wellbeing" (and frankly, that's an enormous can of worms right there that I'm not even going to dip a toe into at this point in time) that is an end, not a means. Conflating the end of social welfare with the means of theft does not necessarily follow at all.

> After taxation, what is your actual income? Is it not enough?

After theft, without theft avoidance, my income is about 25% of the original also. Could I do more and live a better life with the other 75% that is instead being stolen from me to finance demonstrably ineffective local social programs coupled with heinously disgusting foreign policy objectives? Is that what you mean by "Is it not enough?" Because if so, no, it's not enough.

Frankly, I'd give up almost all of the rest of it to avoid having given any of it to those parasites to begin with, and this is a constant drain on my motivation for economic activity in general, knowing how much of my earnings will go to finance activities that make me violently ill if I think too hard about them.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#379
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not complicated to me: - food, books, medicine, ... -> lower VAT - cars, luxury items -> higher VAT

Now, define "luxury items", while considering e.g. that in the UK there's VAT on things like tampons (though at the reduced 5% rate), while e.g. imported luxury meat is zero-rated because its food. It's an incredibly complicated tax to apply, because the rules tend to grow to deal with more and more corner cases. For example: Are jaffa cakes cakes or biscuits? It took a lengthy court case to determine that they are i…

The classic UK example is dried fruit. If it's bought in the cake decoration department it's 0% VAT, from the home brewing department 20% VAT.

Also for some items such as gift baskets the food is 0 rated but the basket/bowl is rated at 20% and the VAT is proportionally allocated. (I can't remember if it's cost or sales price)

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#380
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe that western media care a single bit about free elections in Russia? The only reason they care about it is because The position of Russia government does not match the western narrative.

> Ohh, please stop, do you really believe that western media care a single bit about free elections in Russia? I think any person in the "west" would be delighted to see free elections in Russia. Why wouldn't we? Since it would be a missive influence on our lives, of course western media should care! A government elected by popular vote would be stabilizing to the region (and the world) since it wouldn't have the sam…

> I think any person in the "west" would be delighted to see free elections in Russia. Why wouldn't we? Since it would be a missive influence on our lives, of course western media should care!

In practice, that's not true. Take Egypt as an example where the US government tried to keep Mubarak/Suleiman in place [1] until it was unfeasible during the Arab Spring. When it was time for elections, they pretended to be for them (And so did the western media and public) until the Muslim Brotherhood was elected. That was not well received because democracy is only good if people elect who we want them to elect.

The military coup [2] happened, probably with foreign intervention, and the US government couldn't be more pleased with it. Most of the western public either doesn't know, doesn't care or thinks it's better that way and the media will go along official US lines and not call them dictators like they don't call US aligned governments authoritarian or non-democratic. That's strictly reserved for our opponents.

[1] - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/05/hillary-clinton... [2] - https://theintercept.com/2014/10/02/feigned-american-support...

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