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Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

bloomberg.com

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Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#61

Post by pm90 »

icebraining wrote: post #29
mattmanser wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? It's pretty obvious. If you're working in another country, you're not spending money on tax, rent, food, utilities, etc. in your home country, you're spending them in the host country. Most of your income is spent in the host country. For your own example, most H1Bs want to live and spend their money in the US, not send money back home. So it's actually a terrible 'trade' for the originating country, they los…

Remittances from emigrants account for ~4% of India's GDP.

Remittances are possible only once you have savings. By necessity, a certain percentage of immigrants' income will be spent locally.

Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#62

Post by pm90 »

tim333 wrote: post #32
planetjones wrote: post #12

There's something deeply contradictory in India's attitude. For imports (including setting up supermarkets in India) there are levys, laws and regulations to make it almost impossible for foreign companies. But then India is able to export its IT professionals and outsourcing across the whole world. Is this really a level playing field? Why is no one calling this out as foul play? India seems to want one rule for whe…

This sort of policy mostly harms India itself and doesn't affect the west that much so there's not much point us calling it out. It's stuff like this that keeps India at around 130 on the Human Development Index, a little above the Republic of Congo in spite of having people bright enough to come and run Microsoft. Go protectionism and bureaucracy!

Trade protectionism is an important tool used by developing countries to develop local industries. Nearly all the Asian tigers benefited heavily from high import taxes for many foreign manufactured and consumer goods. Once local expertise is built up sufficiently, these tarriffs are usually relaxed.

If you go further out in the past, you will see the same thing for the US as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_histo....

Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#63

Post by 794CD01 »

planetjones wrote: post #12

There's something deeply contradictory in India's attitude. For imports (including setting up supermarkets in India) there are levys, laws and regulations to make it almost impossible for foreign companies. But then India is able to export its IT professionals and outsourcing across the whole world. Is this really a level playing field? Why is no one calling this out as foul play? India seems to want one rule for whe…

They want one rule for when it's at home. What rules exist abroad are up to the government of that country, not India.

Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#64

Post by Lawtonfogle »

makomk wrote: post #16
npunt wrote: post #5

I understand India's desire to push for local manufacturing, and some of this is all just a bunch of theater dancing around that issue. Meanwhile, the Bloomberg article does a good job of letting us read between the lines about the vested interests in keeping Apple out -- > “The millions of imported used phones will need their batteries replaced. What will happen to those batteries, where will they go?” asked Sunil V…

If a new phone is sold in India, its Indian owner benefits from the entire multi-year lifespan of the battery before it has to be disposed of. If a used phone is imported from the US to India, its battery will be nearing the end of its life - most of the benefit of that battery goes to the original American owner, but the disposal costs are dumped on India. From this perspective, it's a way for the developed world to…

The fact that the battery needs to be disposed of sooner should be factored into the price of the phone. I don't see the issue if they are willing to accept a battery which will need to be disposed of sooner in exchange for a discount.

Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#65

Post by icebraining »

pm90 wrote: post #61
icebraining wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remittances from emigrants account for ~4% of India's GDP.

Remittances are possible only once you have savings. By necessity, a certain percentage of immigrants' income will be spent locally.

Sure, but considering the differences in wages, that percentage may be greater than the whole income that worker would have made in their home country.

Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#66

Post by tim333 »

shripadk wrote: post #46
tim333 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of policy mostly harms India itself and doesn't affect the west that much so there's not much point us calling it out. It's stuff like this that keeps India at around 130 on the Human Development Index, a little above the Republic of Congo in spite of having people bright enough to come and run Microsoft. Go protectionism and bureaucracy!

Are you serious? How is Human Development Index have anything to do with owning Apple devices? Even if Apple is allowed to sell it's refurbished devices it cannot compete with other phone manufacturers who sell devices with better specs at lowest possible rates. And I'm saying this as an Apple fanboy. That is the reality of Indian market. Human Development Index is mostly because of poverty which cannot be eradicated…

Not specifically the Apple deal but the general attitude:

>“Why even consider allowing import of used phones when import of other used goods such as cars are precluded by 300 percent duty levies?”

is what creates much of the poverty. Why not just let people buy and sell phones and cars and set up businesses without the government blocking it?

Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#67

Post by shripadk »

sokoloff wrote: post #56
shripadk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Apple state that the recycling policy applies to any phone irrespective of how many hands has been changed in the process? Would you be willing to buy a second hand refurbished phone from Apple if the recycling policy does not apply for the second hand phone?

Since the alternative would be "there is no market for reuse of once-used phone", the recycling policy would not deter me. Apple as a seller and I as a buyer are making the world better by providing a secondary market for high-level re-use rather than component/elemental level recycling or landfilling. IOW, the recycling policy DOES apply, IMO, even if there is no downstream from my use recycling intent (which I thin…

"there is no market for reuse of once-used phone" That is not the case. There is already a thriving market for reused phones in India. However this is already creating a massive problem of e-waste and hazards. Read this article: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1121191.... Note that the article linked to is of 2007. You can imagine the amount of e-waste India has imported since then.

If Apple's policy includes second hand recycling then there would be no barriers to entry. It would be good if Apple made it clear. There are too many old phones that are available in the secondary market. This is already creating a lot of e-waste which India doesn't have the resources to dispose off. The only other solution is for India to dump this e-waste to even lesser developing countries but that would be shrugging away responsibility.

The other problem is that, by giving Apple permission, India would set a precedent. If Apple is given permission to sell second hand phones, don't you think other mobile manufactures like Sony/Samsung/Karbon etc would also want similar permissions? They would be happy to create "recycling policies" on paper if that would ensure them access to India's secondary market. The question is who will enforce it?

Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#68

Post by FussyZeus »

makomk wrote: post #16
npunt wrote: post #5

I understand India's desire to push for local manufacturing, and some of this is all just a bunch of theater dancing around that issue. Meanwhile, the Bloomberg article does a good job of letting us read between the lines about the vested interests in keeping Apple out -- > “The millions of imported used phones will need their batteries replaced. What will happen to those batteries, where will they go?” asked Sunil V…

If a new phone is sold in India, its Indian owner benefits from the entire multi-year lifespan of the battery before it has to be disposed of. If a used phone is imported from the US to India, its battery will be nearing the end of its life - most of the benefit of that battery goes to the original American owner, but the disposal costs are dumped on India. From this perspective, it's a way for the developed world to…

I've heard from multiple sources that no refurbished Apple iDevice has the original battery, they always replace it.

Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#69

Post by shripadk »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #59
shripadk wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being an Indian I can also get work outsourced to a developer in a foreign country without having to pay any duty. There are many companies in India that also employ foreign nationals. How can you compare import/export of physical goods with import/export of services/labor? Both are different. EDIT: Also you are assuming Apple does not have retail stores in India. In fact there are multiple Apple stores in every city…

Apple doesn't have stores in India. Those are Indian-owned retailers licensed to sell Apple products. Indian law won't allow Apple to open their own stores in India like they have done in China. Apple would only sell second hand phones on India if their was a market for them.

Apple doesn't have to waste money in building stores across India. Isn't that profitable to Apple that they get free access to real estate to showcase its products? Not just that, Apple also earns from providing license to Indian-owned retailers and profits from sale of every Apple device. That is a good thing for Apple is it not?

On the other hand we all know what is happening in China. Even with Apple having it's own store it has a massive problem of dealing with unlicensed copy-cat Apple stores. Read this article for more info: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-china-idUSKCN0V4200

Re: Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

#70

Post by coldtea »

ocean3 wrote: post #53
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> caught by their own elitism of not-selling-affordable-phones. Yeah, and look where that got them. From near bankruptcy in 1997 to being only the most valuable (or in top 3 depending on when you look/how you measure) of companies on the planet.

But that strategy did not work for them in India. Hence they are trying to sell cheaper refurbished models.

Well, they have been doing very well in India too:

http://www.ibtimes.com/once-tough-market-apple-inc-indians-s...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/slideshow/appleindia...

In addition, they're trying to sell cheaper phones there.

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