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Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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391–400 of 452 posts

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication was that Putin's childhood friend is running a scheme that Putin is taking part in.

But Cameron directly benefited from his father's tax avoidance. He received several hundred thousand pounds as an inheritance from his father's estate. I'm sure he would have received less if his father had not saved money by avoiding taxes. He wasn't running the scheme, but he did directly benefit from it.

I have no control or knowledge where my parents keep their money or if they cheat on their taxes or not.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxation is obviously not theft, any more than charging for goods is. "75% of your income" is a very different thing than "75% of your income beyond a certain figure"; I have no problem with basic levels of income being absolutely tax-free. I don't agree with many actions undertaken by my government, including launching illegal wars which I have protested on the street against. That doesn't mean I don't think everyon…

> Taxation is obviously not theft, any more than charging for goods is. The difference between charging for goods and services vs taxation is that you are unable to choose not to patronise the state. A mugger charging you 75% of your income for the privilege of leaving his dark alley with your throat unslit is providing the same choice to you as the state is with regards to taxation. You are not free to refuse to be…

I see that you have some very strong opinions :).

I will comment on the Holocaust analogy say that yes, it was technically legal in the German state since it was sanctioned by the State. That does not mean it was right. The German state was misusing its authority, being hijacked by a dictator and his deranged coterie of supporters.

There has to be some arbitrator of Justice, to settle disputes and create laws and we decided to create institutions to do just that. These institutions are not perfect, and sometimes they may be hijacked. Like Hitler and the German state, or Stalin and the Soviet Union. These institutions are by no means perfect or efficient but there is a need for their existence.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#393
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, being featured in these documents is not in and of itself evidence of any wrongdoing. There are entirely lawful and legitimate reasons for making use of offshore company structures.

I'd replace wrongdoing with illegal. If you ask me, if you're a billionaire and you're not willing to pay taxes and spend 0.0001% of your wealth on the expertise to reduce your tax bill by 99%, in legal ways that 99.99% of the rest of the population doesn't engage in, then by all means that's wrongdoing to me and I think most would be with me on that. Of course it's not necessarily illegal.

As I said on Reddit, it might not be illegal, but it is proof that the system is even more lopsidedly in favor of the wealthy than we thought.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's horrible that I like the sound of a high-ish top rate of income tax? We haven't even stated the terms of what income level that tax rate is applied at, so your finding it horrible is either a total misunderstanding, or you object to the progressive nature of variable income tax outright. I hope it's the former, because I find the latter truly objectionable.

I find the idea of people dressing up simple theft as something other than it is, and in the ill-fitting trappings of a global social good, despite the fact that the institutions being financed by this form of theft were the largest non natural cause of death in the preceding century truly objectionable, too. Letalone moving onto a particularly egregious sort of theft involved in modern taxation rackets where the bur…

Not paying taxes is leaching. Tax dollars pay for the infrastructure that holds society together. If it wasn't for tax dollars, the society in which you derive your income wouldn't exist.

You are provided access under the condition that you put your fair share in when you profit from what is provided. We have a democratic process to determine who can and at what rate they should contribute back.

What right do you have to steal but not give back? If you feel so strongly in regard to your opinions about tax, why haven't you left society to rely on your bootstraps alone?

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#395
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, define "luxury items", while considering e.g. that in the UK there's VAT on things like tampons (though at the reduced 5% rate), while e.g. imported luxury meat is zero-rated because its food. It's an incredibly complicated tax to apply, because the rules tend to grow to deal with more and more corner cases. For example: Are jaffa cakes cakes or biscuits? It took a lengthy court case to determine that they are i…

I agree with you, when it comes to applying law to real life it is usually lengthy and pricey process. We should just use a better legal system where these things are not up in the air. You can complicate life with broken legislation, just to keep lawyers busy. You could also just ask: do we need a lawyer to determine that jaffa cakes are cakes or biscuits, or we can pick one and go with it. On the other note on VAT…

The second part is an interesting idea, but I would be wary of using AI for deciding taxation rates. But maybe I'm old fashioned :).

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the idea of people dressing up simple theft as something other than it is, and in the ill-fitting trappings of a global social good, despite the fact that the institutions being financed by this form of theft were the largest non natural cause of death in the preceding century truly objectionable, too. Letalone moving onto a particularly egregious sort of theft involved in modern taxation rackets where the bur…

Not paying taxes is leaching. Tax dollars pay for the infrastructure that holds society together. If it wasn't for tax dollars, the society in which you derive your income wouldn't exist. You are provided access under the condition that you put your fair share in when you profit from what is provided. We have a democratic process to determine who can and at what rate they should contribute back. What right do you hav…

> Not paying taxes is leaching. Tax dollars pay for the infrastructure that holds society together. If it wasn't for tax dollars, the society in which you derive your income wouldn't exist.

This chain of reason justifies North Korean concentration camps. You are simply throwing out a bunch of justifications for terrible things because you state that the things which those terrible things encase are the infrastructure that holds society together, and grant no possible conceivable alternative for how that infrastructure may be provided, when in fact you simply neglect to acknowledge there is no infrastructure that exists at all that has not been provided with organisational structures outside the modern nation state, period.

> What right do you have to take from us but not give back?

What right do you have to take from us, the people who do not wish to be subject to your theft, and not give back? I want nothing from the state except its utter annihilation. By choice, I take nothing from the state, and never will.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#397
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taxation is obviously not theft, any more than charging for goods is. The difference between charging for goods and services vs taxation is that you are unable to choose not to patronise the state. A mugger charging you 75% of your income for the privilege of leaving his dark alley with your throat unslit is providing the same choice to you as the state is with regards to taxation. You are not free to refuse to be…

I see that you have some very strong opinions :). I will comment on the Holocaust analogy say that yes, it was technically legal in the German state since it was sanctioned by the State. That does not mean it was right. The German state was misusing its authority, being hijacked by a dictator and his deranged coterie of supporters. There has to be some arbitrator of Justice, to settle disputes and create laws and we…

> will comment on the Holocaust analogy say that yes, it was technically legal in the German state since it was sanctioned by the State. That does not mean it was right.

Quite, that was not my implication, you seem to have assumed that my equating the refusal to label taxation as theft with the refusal to label state sanctioned killing as murder means that I am in favour somehow of state sanctioned killing.

The opposite is in fact true, my equating the two is to show that I strongly disapprove of both, and view objecting to the characterisation of either as theft and murder respectively based purely upon legal sophistry as fundamentally useless hair splitting which does not change the nature of the subject under discussion one iota.

> There has to be some arbitrator of Justice, to settle disputes and create laws and we decided to create institutions to do just that.

Dispute resolution and law are certainly things for which there is a demand, I do not grant that the only means by which these things may be provided is via the modern westphalian nation state.

> These institutions are by no means perfect or efficient but there is a need for their existence.

Well, we certainly agree that they are enormously imperfect and inefficient, however on the second one we part ways, so I'll let you make your case; why is there a need for their existence? What is one good or service which the provision of has proven utterly intractable outside the infrastructure of a forcibly imposed land monopolising human farming modern westphalian nation state wielding political authority as defined in Michael Huemer's book on the subject, The problem of political authority?

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#398
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been watching the news and reading newspapers every day for 6 months, across 4 different states.

Alright, well, most news is going to be negative, that's just how news works. You're not going to see the headline "Things at the NHS are going pretty well", because that's not news. Just like you won't see "Medicare has been pretty solid this month" or something. You will see that kind of analysis in editorials and magazines though. So I can understand if you don't see much positive commentary about other countries,…

> I think the expected mindset for the reader is that things in other developed countries are usually going pretty well

You're expecting all too much of readers.

Of the hundreds of people I've hung out with in the last 6 months (in 4 different states) I would say less than 1% of them have any idea about the outside world.

They think healthcare in Canada is crap (which is very far from the truth)

They have no idea the murder rate in the US is so high compared to other developed countries.

They have no idea tertiary education is paid for with taxes in other countries, so students don't pay out of pocket.

etc.

In my experience, the majority of Americans don't know much about how the outside developed world functions, so they can't make meaningful comparisons for the purpose of improving things.

They can, however, compare America to Russia/China/NK all day long, and say "We're doing GREAT!"

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could not agree more. Our society is based on the foundation that everybody does her/his own fair share, if the leaders of the world think it is not the way then lets just stop paying taxes and see how fast things change. One funny thing about humanity, we used to pay 1/10 of our income that was enough for the "state", I am paying 65% (that is right) of my income to the sate right now and it is not enough, I have to…

Where do you live that has a >65% top income tax rate? Because I quite like the sound of it. Or are you conflating other taxes and presenting an overall figure?

Usually it'll go something like: sell product, pay VAT (easily 20% in many countries), take EBT and pay some form of corporate income taxes, then take those profits and pay them out as dividends and pay dividend taxes, or retain earnings and pay for cap gains tax. Or alternatively skip the first step and say you're paying VAT taxes which raises the costs of all your consumption. The end result can be quite high on paper. But then, there's lots of other factors that have nothing to do with Panamanian shady tax loopholes, that create a different reality from the top 'tax rate tables' people like to quote from wikipedia.

Anyway, for actual rates paid, just look at the tax revenues in a country in a given year, then look at GDP and take its percentage. It'll give you a pretty decent proxy for average effective tax rates, iirc in the US it's a little under 30%, on average. That's nothing to complain about. Of course some people pay more, and we call those people rich and some people filthy rich. Frankly, I couldn't care less about that but that's me.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#400

Hilarious that BBC, a broadcaster paid for by British tax payers, has a subheading in that article titled "Russian connection" describing various dealings of Russian characters who are "close associates" of Putin and an equally sordid "Iceland connection" but not even a mention of David Cameron's father's tax evading schemes listed in the documents which the people of Great Britain should be vastly more interested in…

Which is why it's good that this massive pile of data is analyzed by a huge load of international newspapers. This way, papers can selectively publish stuff that won't put themselves in too grave danger - just look what happened to The Guardian with the Snowden leak (visits from three-letter agency officials) or what happens in Turkey, Ukraine or Hungary with media that dares to publish stuff too offensive to the res…

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