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Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

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Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#331

Post by hjhgyhgd »

astazangasta wrote: post #277
hjhgjtyhdf wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny because the "slaves" in America right now enjoy a higher standard of living than virtually every king and queen before our generation.

Kings and queens didn't have to work 70 hour weeks to feed themselves last I checked.

A person on welfare today has more access to a vast number of food options than Kings and Queens of yesteryear. Grapes and wine are extremely cheap and affordable to anyone who has $5 in their pocket. A full meal of chicken and rice can also be had for $3.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#332

Post by mbfg »

IndianAstronaut wrote: post #189
mbfg wrote: post #56

I'm all for raising the minimum wage, temporarily it may help people for several years. The truth is the automation wave is coming quickly regardless of what people are paid. And it's not for just minimum wage jobs. Think about jobs like truck driver where there's probably several million people who count this as their profession in the US. In 10-20 years, that number will probably approach 0. There's a nasty new wor…

>There's a nasty new world order coming where a vast majority of jobs will be gone Want to know the biggest job killer in history? The tractor. Farm employment in the developed world went from 70% to 2%. We have been through this before. We can generate new jobs.

We do create new jobs. But you do recognize it's a Ponzi scheme right? Each iteration include a smaller set of highly educated jobs, which will be out of reach for a larger percentage of the population.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#333

Post by hjhgyhgd »

turar wrote: post #326
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that image of monarchs comes from the movies? The famous inventory of Charlemagne's estate includes 2 cups, one chair and a towel. Their food back then was bad meat and oatmeal, no matter who you were. Indeed, just the existence of cheap antibiotics are likely to make the most humble of today's citizens live decades longer than anyone from the past.

This has a good overview of a routine day in the life of a monarch. It's nothing like bad meat and oatmeal. https://www.quora.com/What-was-daily-life-like-for-a-medieva...

A poor person today has access to thousands of movies and music on Netflix and YouTube. A poor person today has a vast array of meals they can purchase with less than one hour of minimum wage work. A poor person today can buy tons of generic prescription pills whose formulas were nonexistent during yesteryear.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#334

Post by hjhgyhgd »

jqm wrote: post #306
hjhgjtyhdf wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name one society with a higher standard of living than one based on a market economy? Hint: You can't.

Sure I can. Feudalism. Oh, you meant a higher standard of living for everyone? Well then, are you sure market economies are really the end all solution for that? Listen, you seem to think I'm arguing against market economies or trying to promote some kind of communism. I'm not. I'm just pointing out capitalism and communism are not the only choices. There have been other systems and some of them lasted a long time an…

What economies can you point to that have provided their citizens a higher standard of living than the market economies have? Be specific.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#335

Post by davidgay »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #26
Retra wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "good argument" for having a minimum wage is that without it, wages will be pressured down , because every business on the planet wants wages as low as possible, and they generally have the means to achieve this. It has nothing to do with job creation: it's about having jobs that are not basically slavery. It's for job quality, not quantity. Besides, you're just assuming people should be employed at "fair market…

You're using an inadequate notion of what a "good argument" is in this context. You have not made an argument for why a price floor is necessary or desirable. I could just as easily say, "The good argument for having a maximum 'price of bread' is that without it, bread prices will be pressured up, because every bakery on the planet wants prices as high as possible, and they generally have the means to achieve it." Yo…

> Do you know what happens when real countries try to impose a limit on the price of bread? Starvation. The Soviet Union tried to establish a limit on the price of bread.

Too simplistic. France had significant limits on bread prices until 1987, and starvation did not ensue.

http://www.lesnouvellesdelaboulangerie.fr/propos-des-regles-... (in French) was the best summary I could find, and it's not very detailed. But it does mention that from 1978 "prices could be freely selected by each producer" (so were not before), but with (from 1979 until 1987) various limitations such as maximum prices, agreed increases, no-price-change-allowed, etc.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#336

Post by hjhgyhgd »

knughit wrote: post #315
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's rich, considering the number of 'marxist' rebel groups murdering nuns and social leaders and bombing schools.

How does that compare to a capitalist killing a 1000people in one day by collapsing a building on them? (Rana Plaza)

Yes, because surely millions of lives weren't viciously murdered during Mao's and Stalin's reigns. Let's just point to a building with structural failures and imply capitalists murderers.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#337

Post by yummyfajitas »

zanny wrote: post #323
yummyfajitas wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, if there was an oversupply of labor prices would come down. Note that I said labor is scarce, not that there is a shortage. The fact that prices remain high suggest people are choosing not to work, not that their labor is worthless and they can't find any job. Why do we need a BI if labor is valuable and people are merely lazy? Why do we want to make a scarce resource even scarcer?

What prices are high? One important, central consideration must remain that labor is local. Surely some cities in the US have a labor shortage, and the worse it gets the more financial pressure it puts on the unemployed elsewhere to somehow manage the opportunity cost to immigrate. But the workforce participation rate is at a twenty year low, it is below 1960s levels before women even entered the workforce en masse,…

But the workforce participation rate is at a twenty year low...

This confirms what I said - people don't want to work. Workforce participation rate = (working + seeking work) / population.

I'm also curious who is "lazily" not working, and somehow still eating and sleeping under a roof.

People on public assistance. Millions are exploiting lax standards in disability programs: http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

The vast majority of poor people (75% or so) don't work and are not seeking work yet have consumption of approximately $20k/year/consumer unit. Where do you get the idea that people will be homeless if they don't work?

In the macrospective economy, I would like to see evidence of unsupplied demand at the minimum wage for child care or construction workers.

It's pretty easy. Offer child care for $7.25/hour and see if anyone tries to hire you.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#338

Post by turar »

hjhgyhgd wrote: post #333
turar wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has a good overview of a routine day in the life of a monarch. It's nothing like bad meat and oatmeal. https://www.quora.com/What-was-daily-life-like-for-a-medieva...

A poor person today has access to thousands of movies and music on Netflix and YouTube. A poor person today has a vast array of meals they can purchase with less than one hour of minimum wage work. A poor person today can buy tons of generic prescription pills whose formulas were nonexistent during yesteryear.

A poor person has no Netflix, and doesn't have time for YouTube, she is either clocked in on the job, sitting in traffic to pick up kids from school, or cooking dinner. Besides, that kind of mindless passive entertainment is vastly inferior to what monarch had access to -- hunting, horseback riding, live music and shows, sex, etc. See pharke's response above regarding cheap processed foods.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#339

Post by [deleted] »

hjhgyhgd wrote: post #334
jqm wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure I can. Feudalism. Oh, you meant a higher standard of living for everyone? Well then, are you sure market economies are really the end all solution for that? Listen, you seem to think I'm arguing against market economies or trying to promote some kind of communism. I'm not. I'm just pointing out capitalism and communism are not the only choices. There have been other systems and some of them lasted a long time an…

What economies can you point to that have provided their citizens a higher standard of living than the market economies have? Be specific.

[deleted]

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#340

Post by erichocean »

wrong_variable wrote: post #8

A hike in the cost of labour was the reason why the industrial revolution happened in Britain vs India. Even today, the cost of labour is so little in India that there is no need to innovate in robotics,AI etc. To me the question should be framed as - do we want minimum wage workers to be slaves ? This is essentially the argument being made. If robots are actually cheaper then why haven't they being deployed yet ? Ha…

> If robots are actually cheaper then why haven't they being deployed yet?

Easy: because software is hard.

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