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Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

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Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#301

Post by JoeAltmaier »

turar wrote: post #299
rtpg wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marxists and communists have tried this without also sticking to democracy... The well known failings could just as well be due to the massize amount of corruption that came from the strong bases of power. We also had "real" market economies (no trust busting or the like) in the early 20th and it was shitty for a huge part of the population History is the biggest argument against all economic systems

Not to mention capitalist countries working very hard to undermine marxists and communists by pretty much any means possible.

That's rich, considering the number of 'marxist' rebel groups murdering nuns and social leaders and bombing schools.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#302

Post by pdkl95 »

LunaSea wrote: post #243
pdkl95 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where does the government get the money to give out to everyone? The exact same place they get it right now - they pull it out of thin air by fiat. (involving a quasi-government agency ("the fed") as a proxy is optional) Money hasn't been zero sum up since the gold standard. Governments already define most aspects of money, and they can change it as needed, such as when Nixon declared that the dollar was no longer…

Congratulations on writing the most retarded comment I have ever read on HN.

If you think that's "retarded", I suggest studying more macroeconomics and the history of the dollar. I suspect money doesn't work they way you think it does.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#303

Post by mangeletti »

drewcrawford wrote: post #209
mangeletti wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, I gave a concrete example and said you're an idiot if you can't see the difference between that example and prosperity. I don't see a rebuttal from you. All I see is a genetic fallacy, namely appeal to authority. The reason nobody agrees whether minimum wage is good or bad is because we have Austrian and Keynesian economics at battle in America. Only one of those two can be better than the other, and if we…

> All I see is a genetic fallacy, namely appeal to authority. Appeal to relevant authority is not a fallacy. > because we have Austrian and Keynesian economics at battle in America. This is a common misconception among "armchair economists". There is no battle betwen Austrian and Keynesian economics in America today any more than there is a battle between Confederates and the Union. There was a battle, years ago, but…

> Appeal to relevant authority is not a fallacy.

Yeah, because nothing says "relevant" like failing to see a global economic catastrophe, like the one in 2008 (or any other in the history of the human race). To suggest that economists are, aggregate, any more relevant than you or I is literally the quintessential example of a genetic fallacy. Such ignorance.

> There is no battle betwen Austrian and Keynesian economics in America today any more than there is a battle between Confederates and the Union.

You really need to turn off the TV... I can't even finish the rest of your comment, it's so full of ignorance.

Ron Paul v establishment

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#304

Post by refurb »

onion2k wrote: post #225
refurb wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US really does seem like some strange experiment in how not to do economics and democracy. This is the exact opposite of how most people view America. If it's so bad, why do so many people want to live in the US?

If it's so bad, why do so many people want to live in the U.S.? Annually the USCIS gets about 6 million applications (that's in total, including permanent and temporary immigration claims). That's 0.08% of all the people on Earth (not including those already in the U.S.). Is it really fair to say a lot of people want to live there?

Gallop poll says 150M people worldwide would like to move to the US.[1] The UK is 2nd with 45M.

[1]http://www.gallup.com/poll/153992/150-million-adults-worldwi...

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#305

Post by refurb »

kuschku wrote: post #257
refurb wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US really does seem like some strange experiment in how not to do economics and democracy. This is the exact opposite of how most people view America. If it's so bad, why do so many people want to live in the US?

> why do so many people want to live in the US? The same reason why a million refugees came to Germany: False expectations. What people expect from the US is a country with no taxes, great economy, and the ability to become a millionaire within of months. That’s why.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with escaping from violence or war or corruption or discrimination.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#306

Post by jqm »

hjhgjtyhdf wrote: post #273
jqm wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been successful (meaning what exactly?) societies that were not market economy based. People tend to think communism vs capitalism but for most of human history it's been something else. Like hunter/gather or some form of feudalism. I don't disagree that market societies work for distributing goods. But they do have external costs. Are there more efficient ways? Probably. Will market economies go the way o…

Can you name one society with a higher standard of living than one based on a market economy? Hint: You can't.

Sure I can. Feudalism. Oh, you meant a higher standard of living for everyone? Well then, are you sure market economies are really the end all solution for that?

Listen, you seem to think I'm arguing against market economies or trying to promote some kind of communism. I'm not. I'm just pointing out capitalism and communism are not the only choices. There have been other systems and some of them lasted a long time and were extremely "successful" (if by success you mean providing a sustainable livelihood for the members).

But I don't disagree that market economies are effective in achieving certain ends. However humanity didn't come down out of the trees to a market economy and market economies likely won't be around when humanity finally ends. They are a phase in human history, that's all. It's not an ideological statement. Just observation and projection.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#307

Post by aninhumer »

LunaSea wrote: post #296
aninhumer wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The taxes are paid by the people who now own the entire productive economy.

These people would never have enough money especially since the companies they control will have a much smaller consumer base due to higher and higher unemployment rates, a consequence of automation.

Except you have Basic Income to offset that unemployment, so there's still plenty of consumption.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#308

Post by zanny »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #298
zanny wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you offered sufficiently high wages to do those jobs, you would find plenty of people willing to do them. A labor glut does not necessitate me being able to ask for someone to mow my lawn for one cent and having someone volunteer. You have a labor glut when the availability of living wage work declines below the working population who need to earn such a living.

That's fine - the point is that people aren't obsolete and work is available. People are just unwilling to do the work. That's not an argument in favor of a basic income - a basic income just increases the incentives for laziness and makes the labor scarcity worse. (10% or so in the Canadian experiments.)

Basic income gives the poor bargaining power in wage negotiations. It would require cultural adaptation, but I know of few individuals whose whole needs can be satiated by just having food and shelter. People still want things. They take out insane loans, mismanage their money, and even sacrifice those base necessities to possess things. We have a strong consumer culture, and UBI can take advantage of that to reduce suffering and empower workers more to actually negotiate with employers rather than it being a one sided conversation with your only failsafe being an undesirable minimum wage.

I highly doubt making labor more scarce, when we are in such a glut (and continued automation will perpetuate and expand the glut) would actually cause any real harm to the economy. We already pad economics with millions of ghost jobs that exist solely because the marginal loss in productivity and efficiency having unnecessary workers is less than the cost of having mass destitution and social instability.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#309

Post by turar »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #301
turar wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention capitalist countries working very hard to undermine marxists and communists by pretty much any means possible.

That's rich, considering the number of 'marxist' rebel groups murdering nuns and social leaders and bombing schools.

What's that number? Not even out of single digits? That's rich indeed, considering the entire history of the 20th century is that of successful foreign capitalist intervention, starting all the way with the Russian revolution.

No matter how bloody the communists were, my original point was that it was never done in an environment without active foreign involvement of undermining, destabilization, and outright warfare.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#310

Post by yummyfajitas »

zanny wrote: post #308
yummyfajitas wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine - the point is that people aren't obsolete and work is available. People are just unwilling to do the work. That's not an argument in favor of a basic income - a basic income just increases the incentives for laziness and makes the labor scarcity worse. (10% or so in the Canadian experiments.)

Basic income gives the poor bargaining power in wage negotiations. It would require cultural adaptation, but I know of few individuals whose whole needs can be satiated by just having food and shelter. People still want things . They take out insane loans, mismanage their money, and even sacrifice those base necessities to possess things. We have a strong consumer culture, and UBI can take advantage of that to reduce…

A glut is when the supply is available to anyone who wants it and additional supply goes unused.

We've already established that we have the exact opposite problem. Our national infrastructure is crumbling because no one is fixing it. Skilled women stay home with their children because child care is unavailable. Homes go uncleaned, nails go un-manicured, etc, because no one is available to do these things.

If we reduce the labor supply by 13% (what was done during the Mincome experiment) that only makes these problems worse. For comparison, the great recession cut labor supply by 5%.

https://decorrespondent.nl/541/why-we-should-give-free-money...

As you note, people want things - if we cut the labor supply we have fewer things to go around.

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