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What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

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Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#61

Post by prmph »

barrkel wrote: post #29
switch007 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just going to jump in here and point out rayiner is an appellate lawyer.

Indeed he may be, but the case of Herrera v. Collins is pretty clear - laws are about procedures, not facts. If someone has been found guilty in a trial, and there were no flaws in the prodecures followed, then it is not unconstitutional to follow through with the punishment, even if later evidence shows the person is innocent. More importantly, it would be procedurally problematic if convicted criminals could appeal…

But that challenges the whole foundations of a civilized society, does it not? I suspect if prominent people are being caught on the wrong side of such procedural issues, ways would be found to tweak the law in a hurry.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#62

Post by joering2 »

the_ancient wrote: post #20
CapitalistCartr wrote: post #3

In the United States, innocence has never been grounds for an appeal, a stay, overturning, or clemency. Here in Florida, I could write an accurate algorithm for calculating the application of the Death Penalty. Skin darkness (literally, not race), IQ, wealth, sex are the relevant factors. The elements of the case are not. I'm not against the Death Penalty on general principle grounds; I'm against it because we clearl…

>>>I'm not against the Death Penalty on general principle grounds You should be... When you kill someone outside the conditions of self defense that is murder and is immoral. I do not care if the government doing it as some kind of "punishment" or a person doing it for another reason, murder is murder, "capital punishment" is murder. If we want a peaceful, just and free society, it can not include capital punishment.…

Frankly, I don't even understand what's the purpose of capital punishment?

It is not to punish someone -- they are already dead, so they can't feel the punishment It is not to set an example -- its been proven over and over again - when people are ready or commit crime, the last thing they think of is that they will get caught or get punished. That's why death penalty does not stop people from committing heinous crimes. It is not to give relief to the family of a victim. Countless examples of (mostly Christians) that publicly said they forgive the murderer and are against death penalty for him/her are always being ignored by justice.

Its very scary to think a civilized country have something as horrible as death penalty, which imho means we gave up on someone. Sure I've seen animals in human skin but what stops us from putting them in jail for the rest of their lives (not money I can tell you that).

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#63

Post by Spooky23 »

barrkel wrote: post #29
switch007 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just going to jump in here and point out rayiner is an appellate lawyer.

Indeed he may be, but the case of Herrera v. Collins is pretty clear - laws are about procedures, not facts. If someone has been found guilty in a trial, and there were no flaws in the prodecures followed, then it is not unconstitutional to follow through with the punishment, even if later evidence shows the person is innocent. More importantly, it would be procedurally problematic if convicted criminals could appeal…

Convictions get vacated when an alternate perpetrator is identified or confesses.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#65

Post by rayiner »

barrkel wrote: post #29
switch007 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just going to jump in here and point out rayiner is an appellate lawyer.

Indeed he may be, but the case of Herrera v. Collins is pretty clear - laws are about procedures, not facts. If someone has been found guilty in a trial, and there were no flaws in the prodecures followed, then it is not unconstitutional to follow through with the punishment, even if later evidence shows the person is innocent. More importantly, it would be procedurally problematic if convicted criminals could appeal…

Hererra v. Collins must be considered in the (unfortunately complicated) context of post-conviction review law. There are state and federal post-conviction review procedures for dealing with new evidence. In addition, while Herrera and later cases reserve the question of whether "actual innocence" is by itself a basis for habeas relief, in practice there is a "bootstrap" Constitutional violation (usually ineffective assistance of counsel) that in conjunction with the actual innocence claim will provide a basis for habeas review. And in McQuiggin v. Perkins, the Supreme Court cleared pretty much any procedural hurdle to such claims when "actual innocence" is shown.

Here is an article that discusses the context surrounding Herrera v. Collins: http://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl....

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#66

Post by baddox »

joering2 wrote: post #62
the_ancient wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>I'm not against the Death Penalty on general principle grounds You should be... When you kill someone outside the conditions of self defense that is murder and is immoral. I do not care if the government doing it as some kind of "punishment" or a person doing it for another reason, murder is murder, "capital punishment" is murder. If we want a peaceful, just and free society, it can not include capital punishment.…

Frankly, I don't even understand what's the purpose of capital punishment? It is not to punish someone -- they are already dead, so they can't feel the punishment It is not to set an example -- its been proven over and over again - when people are ready or commit crime, the last thing they think of is that they will get caught or get punished. That's why death penalty does not stop people from committing heinous crim…

One obvious answer is that capital punishment guarantees that the criminal will not commit another crime, which isn't true of any other sentence.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#67

Post by rwjwjuwjudf »

baddox wrote: post #66
joering2 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, I don't even understand what's the purpose of capital punishment? It is not to punish someone -- they are already dead, so they can't feel the punishment It is not to set an example -- its been proven over and over again - when people are ready or commit crime, the last thing they think of is that they will get caught or get punished. That's why death penalty does not stop people from committing heinous crim…

One obvious answer is that capital punishment guarantees that the criminal will not commit another crime, which isn't true of any other sentence.

Lifetime solitary without any means of communication. This is probably worse than death.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#68

Post by the_ancient »

colin_mccabe wrote: post #38
the_ancient wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>At least that's how it works during trial. That is for the first trial, and the first trial only After that you are guilty, the only thing that matters to the legal system then is their arbitrary rules. The other commenter is 100% correct that actual innocents is irreverent for any appeal. The US Legal System is completely off the rails of any common sense, justice, or rational thought at this point. "The law perve…

The intention behind debating guilt only at the first trial is to prevent endless retrials for the same thing. Imagine if you were cleared of a charge but someone kept re-accusing you over and over, dragging you back to trial again and again. Or similarly, if someone was found guilty of the murder of someone you loved, but kept being re-tried again and again, and you had to keep giving testimony as a witness each tim…

>> Imagine if you were cleared of a charge but someone kept re-accusing you over and over, dragging you back to trial again and again.

Well that is turning the double jeopardy rule on its head, using that to defend not considering innocence on appeal is something only a lawyer wishing to pervert the law would consider...

The purpose of double jeopardy is to limit state power to put people in a cage, not to increase state power to keep them there...

>And appeals, which ought to be rare, somehow have become routine for many cases.

I dont think so, I think any sentence over 5 years should come with an automatic appeal to a 3 judge panel and any sentence of Life or more, should come with a automatic retrial with a whole new jury.

I have zero faith in the Jury system and police state, and I think the wrongful conviction rate is vastly under reported. That is with out even getting started in the immoral extortion racket called "plea bargain"

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#69

Post by the_ancient »

rwjwjuwjudf wrote: post #46
the_ancient wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Why are you allowed to murder someone in self-defense, but not as a punishment for crimes? The principle of Self Ownership, which is the basis of the philosophy of liberty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9srplWe_QQ It would not be murder to protect your own life from the aggression of others. However any use of violence must be in proportion to the threat to your life. I.e I do not believe you have the right to ki…

If capital punishment is murder, then taxation is theft.

Correct

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#70

Post by the_ancient »

function_seven wrote: post #51
the_ancient wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Why are you allowed to murder someone in self-defense, but not as a punishment for crimes? The principle of Self Ownership, which is the basis of the philosophy of liberty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9srplWe_QQ It would not be murder to protect your own life from the aggression of others. However any use of violence must be in proportion to the threat to your life. I.e I do not believe you have the right to ki…

Great answer. Do you consider lifetime imprisonment to be immoral for the same reason?

That depends, in general yes.

Generally I believe the only persons that should be in "prison" are those that are a clear danger to society Serial Killers for example.

Not for punishment, but for the protection of society.

I think the legal system should be less about punishment, and more about Restitution and Protection.

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