What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed • Hacker News Board

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#41

Post by the_ancient » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:14 PM UTC

function_seven wrote: post #34

the_ancient wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because it is "legal". Do you base your morality on what is legal and what is illegal? How do you define murder?

Sincere question. Why are you allowed to murder someone in self-defense, but not as a punishment for crimes? What moral code do you rely on that draws the line there? Why is that moral code more correct than one that draws the line between punishment and capricious violence? FWIW, I'm somewhere between you and OP in my thoughts. Definitely against the death penalty in practice , and somewhat ambivalent in theory. But…

>>Why are you allowed to murder someone in self-defense, but not as a punishment for crimes?

The principle of Self Ownership, which is the basis of the philosophy of liberty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9srplWe_QQ

It would not be murder to protect your own life from the aggression of others. However any use of violence must be in proportion to the threat to your life. I.e I do not believe you have the right to kill someone for trespassing, but only in those circumstance where there is a reasonable believe your life to be direct and immediate danger.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#42

Post by mikeash » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:20 PM UTC

sevenless wrote: post #25

The family of four he brutally murdered might have had an opinion on that, too.

There's a reason we don't let victims of crimes determine the punishment for the criminals.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#43

Post by rayiner » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:20 PM UTC

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #12

rayiner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual innocence is a grounds for vacating a conviction.

In the USA, innocence isn't grounds for an appeal. Actual, post-conviction DNA tests aren't a basis. Errors at trial are. So good lawyers find one. Jury instructions, evidentiary errors, procedural, etc., which is why money buys justice.

"Innocence" is an unknowable state of fact. Insufficiency of evidence to prove guilt is a basis for direct appeal. And new evidence showing actual innocence is a basis for federal habeas review after appeal. See McQuiggin v. Perkins. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudenc...

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#44

Post by jveld » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:21 PM UTC

svdr wrote: post #35

jveld wrote: post #18

Dostoevsky (The Brothers Karamazov, Crime And Punishment) was sentenced to be executed by the Tsarist government in 1849. He was actually in front of the firing squad , waiting for his turn to die, when he learned that his sentence had been commuted to a measly 10 years hard labor in Siberia. One could argue that this was the defining moment of his life, and most of his greatest works were motivated in some way by th…

One of the main characters in Tolstoy's War and Peace (Pierre) was also almost executed. You can read the scene here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2600/2600-h/2600-h.htm#link2...

Fascinating! I wonder if Tolstoy was depecting Dostoevsky. I guess I'll have to read War and Peace as my enormous literary undertaking of the summer.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#45

Post by MOARDONGZPLZ » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:30 PM UTC

wyldfire wrote: post #39

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are completely misinformed. Reasonable doubt applies at trial, not on appeals. Also, the ad hominem adds nothing to your point. Edit: look at Herrera v. Collins (SCOTUS): "Petitioner's claim of actual innocence based on newly discovered evidence is not ground for federal habeas relief. United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit affirmed." Two questions were presented for the Supreme Court's review: Do t…

Is the critical distinction in "federal habeas relief"? Does that mean that state appellate courts can/do consider evidence of innocence in order to vacate a conviction?

No it doesn't. It just means that this particular case doesn't speak to states doing that or not. It has no applicability outside of federal habeas relief.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#46

Post by rwjwjuwjudf » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:34 PM UTC

the_ancient wrote: post #41

function_seven wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sincere question. Why are you allowed to murder someone in self-defense, but not as a punishment for crimes? What moral code do you rely on that draws the line there? Why is that moral code more correct than one that draws the line between punishment and capricious violence? FWIW, I'm somewhere between you and OP in my thoughts. Definitely against the death penalty in practice , and somewhat ambivalent in theory. But…

>>Why are you allowed to murder someone in self-defense, but not as a punishment for crimes? The principle of Self Ownership, which is the basis of the philosophy of liberty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9srplWe_QQ It would not be murder to protect your own life from the aggression of others. However any use of violence must be in proportion to the threat to your life. I.e I do not believe you have the right to ki…

If capital punishment is murder, then taxation is theft.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#47

Post by rdl » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:35 PM UTC

SeanDav wrote: post #17

This would have been a far more interesting article if he had spoken more about his thoughts and feelings, rather than the mechanical processes.

I find the factual, mechanical description more emotionally moving, because I can more easily put myself in the position of the writer. My emotions matter a lot more to me than what a (convicted) murderer says he's feeling -- I'm against the death penalty even in cases where the person is clearly guilty and a horrible person.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#48

Post by throwaway_exer » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:35 PM UTC

If the only reason for banning capital punishment in the USA was to prevent DA's from personally benefiting from "being tough on crime" in the next election for DA or governor, that would be enough.

The entire American criminal system is beyond corrupt at this point.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#49

Post by stale2002 » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:38 PM UTC

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #12

rayiner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual innocence is a grounds for vacating a conviction.

In the USA, innocence isn't grounds for an appeal. Actual, post-conviction DNA tests aren't a basis. Errors at trial are. So good lawyers find one. Jury instructions, evidentiary errors, procedural, etc., which is why money buys justice.

Ok then, what happens if new evidence comes up. For example, lets say you were accused of murder, and later on a video is found on some security camera that wasn't noticed before of someone else killing the person in question, so that you are 100% proven to NOT be the murderer?

Would that be grounds for an appeal? I'm pretty sure it would be...

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#50

Post by svdr » Sat, Apr 02, 2016, 10:42 PM UTC

jveld wrote: post #44

svdr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the main characters in Tolstoy's War and Peace (Pierre) was also almost executed. You can read the scene here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2600/2600-h/2600-h.htm#link2...

Fascinating! I wonder if Tolstoy was depecting Dostoevsky. I guess I'll have to read War and Peace as my enormous literary undertaking of the summer.

Highly recommended!