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Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

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Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#91

Post by unclebucknasty »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #40
unclebucknasty wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not surprising that a conservative think tank released a study against the minimum wage. There are also arguments and studies concluding that the minimum wage ultimately creates jobs.

The conservative government here in the UK has put the minimum wage on a steep upward trajectory. This is not a conservative vs left-wing (or liberal as you like to call it) thing. The more important distinction is between those who keep holding on to paid work as the main or only moral basis for deserved income and the other camp that tries to move away from that principle. There are conservative, left-leaning and l…

That may be true in the UK, but here in the States it is overwhelmingly a left-vs-right debate.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#92

Post by icebraining »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #23
Pyxl101 wrote: post #12

I've never heard a good argument to justify having a minimum wage. A lot of the people who argue for minimum wages commit the fallacy of the false dichotomy: they think that the choice is between everyone having jobs and getting paid what they're paid now, and everyone having jobs and getting paid more -- they think they can somehow legislate the latter outcome. In reality, what tends to happen when you increase mini…

Well, I just don't know what to say to this. Sounds like the kind of thing someone who gets paid well above the minimum wage would say. Check out this Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_count... and sort by Hourly Nominal in descending order. Australia, France, New Zealand, Ireland, Belgium, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Germany, and Canada all have minimum wages above the US. All…

To play Devil's advocate, most of other countries have an higher unemployment rate than the US.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#93

Post by pgtruesdell »

karmacondon wrote: post #88
atemerev wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, every business on the planet wants wages as low as possible. This is, of course, correct. On the other hand, every employee on the planet wants her wage to be as high as possible. This is also obviously true. This creates law of supply and demand. Google can't hire a decent software engineer for, say, $30000/year, because other companies will immediately offer more, and supply of talented software engineers is…

Why do you think minimum wage laws exist? It's because at one point in our nation's history, businesses implicitly colluded to set wages low. They have more power in wage negotiations than workers do, because there are generally people who can afford to do unskilled labor for very small amounts. Businesses got greedy and took that too far, offering people wages far beyond a minimum standard of living. So in response,…

Collusion to suppress wages is already illegal. All you're saying is that you don't have any faith in the government to prevent collusion. Which is a whole separate issue.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#94

Post by PhasmaFelis »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #40
unclebucknasty wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not surprising that a conservative think tank released a study against the minimum wage. There are also arguments and studies concluding that the minimum wage ultimately creates jobs.

The conservative government here in the UK has put the minimum wage on a steep upward trajectory. This is not a conservative vs left-wing (or liberal as you like to call it) thing. The more important distinction is between those who keep holding on to paid work as the main or only moral basis for deserved income and the other camp that tries to move away from that principle. There are conservative, left-leaning and l…

You must be aware that "conservative" means something somewhat different in the US compared to the rest of the world. I agree that it's rather silly and exceptionalist of us, but the fact remains that Americans who identify as conservative are very likely to want to reduce public support.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#96

Post by CuriouslyC »

makomk wrote: post #71
Pyxl101 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using an inadequate notion of what a "good argument" is in this context. You have not made an argument for why a price floor is necessary or desirable. I could just as easily say, "The good argument for having a maximum 'price of bread' is that without it, bread prices will be pressured up, because every bakery on the planet wants prices as high as possible, and they generally have the means to achieve it." Yo…

> I could just as easily say, "The good argument for having a maximum 'price of bread' is that without it, bread prices will be pressured up, because every bakery on the planet wants prices as high as possible, and they generally have the means to achieve it." You could certainly just as easily say that, but there's an obvious reason why it isn't true: so long as there are multiple suppliers and it's possible to prod…

A race to the bottom only happens with fungible goods, where any price differential is sufficient to completely dominate purchasing logic. There is a very broad spread in the quality of bread, and people's purchasing decisions are heavily weighted by product marketing.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#97

Post by eli_gottlieb »

atemerev wrote: post #68
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this contradict the parent comment? Minimum wage obviously doesn't affect Google engineers, it affects the unskilled labor with near-limitless supply that you have mentioned. The idea is to prevent that kind of labor from becoming basically slavery.

Slavery is forced labor. I don't see anything forced here. Salaries for unskilled labor are driven down by lack of demand for unskilled labor, and nothing can be done about that. What can be done is adjusting employees' skills to the areas where demand is still high. Coding bootcamps are one obvious possibility, but there are others. Everyone can learn new things. You, personally, can help these people, too. Hire an…

>Salaries for unskilled labor are driven down by lack of demand for unskilled labor, and nothing can be done about that.

The workers can unionize and strike until their demands are met.

Unless, of course, you have something forced, like Pinkertons to beat up striking workers.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#98

Post by T2_t2 »

Chinjut wrote: post #87
oconnore wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are essentially making the luddite case. I'm not, I'm just countering some "don't worry, everything will be fine" idealism. I don't think we should halt progress, but I do think we should be more intentional about how we go about it. There is not currently a solution on the table to address mass un/under-employment caused by near-term automation. Basic income is thrown around, but even if enacted, does not chan…

The solution I'd like to see: Enact basic income AND change the fact that our culture views work ethic (narrowly defined in terms of market income) ~= value.

> AND change the fact that our culture views

When has that ever worked? I can't think of a single example.

Things people may raise like racism and sexism, in so far as they are changed, weren't changed per se, but merged with pre-existing values (liberty, fairness, equality) and morphed into a (usually) more consistent new definition. "We can all vote but not women" is more caveats than the new reality. Sexist ideas and elements weren't so much changed, they were contrasted with other values, and the inconsistency removed. Women vote, we can't pay less based on religion/race/gender etc. Same values, inconsistency removed.

So rather than change the view, I think the question is what can we contrast "work ~= value" with so that the inconsistency is clear? Maybe a sense of "money isn't everything"? That's all I've got, but then all the "77c on the dollar" talk puts money front and centre in almost every debate, making the "money is not everything" hard to sell as a deep cultural concept.

I dunno, the protestant work ethic is deeply, deeply ingrained in the west - not sure we really can change it, or what it can be merged with that we believe as strongly.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#99

Post by tma-1 »

marcosdumay wrote: post #85
cornholio wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are essentially making the luddite case. The counterargument usually goes like this: yes, people would be fired and there will be serious pain in the short run; however the machines will drastically improve productivity, therefore reduce prices, so real wages will go up along with demand and the extra income not spent on, say, buying feed stock for your horse, will go in creating other jobs and economic sectors t…

And you are essentially repeating the "wealth inequality does not exist" mantra. But it does not matter how many times people repeat, it does not become real. Inequality exists. Those people fired will be out of places to go. Yes, overall people will become richer, those people are an exception.

Let them automate and buy their own stocks back, it's gonna bit them in the ass sooner or later.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#100

Post by spdy »

mbfg wrote: post #56

I'm all for raising the minimum wage, temporarily it may help people for several years. The truth is the automation wave is coming quickly regardless of what people are paid. And it's not for just minimum wage jobs. Think about jobs like truck driver where there's probably several million people who count this as their profession in the US. In 10-20 years, that number will probably approach 0. There's a nasty new wor…

> There's a nasty new world order coming where a vast majority of jobs will be gone. There will be super wealthy 'robot owners' and peasant/slaves

This will maybe be the case in the beginning but if you have to deal with an unemployment rate of 20-40% inside a country under heavy arms as America you have to find solutions quickly as modern society tend to fix problems when they occur we will have a bumpy ride into our new economy model that has to come.

And with the automation that is coming like delivery / fully autonomous fabrics / A.I etc. we can provide the basic needs to everyone food / electricity / water / housing at no cost.

We have to figure out reward and leisure.

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